sunflower

Why is the FBI refusing to provide the information as to how they identified all those people AND parts of the plane, per a FOIA request? Can you answer that? If they actually existed, and they were real and credible, and we are all supposed to believe them - no questions asked - then why don't they just provide the information as to how they actually identified all of that.

__________________
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act”.

George Orwell

************************************

The owners of this country know the truth. It's called the American Dream....'cos you have to be asleep to believe it.

George Carlin

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Titanium Cat

This is called "changing the subject". Sunflower implied that it was unlikely that the hijackers could "circumvent all our alleged systems" when in fact security was pretty weak and it was probably quite easy for them to do so.

People don't want to wait in line for hours and they don't want to pay serious money to airport security personal. They don't want that more than they want tight security.

anhailla

you don't think pathology teams at the pentagon existed?
how many times have I posted how the victims at the pentagon were identified?

eventually you said the newspapers were making up the articles...do you remember?

__________________
...either I go, or that wallpaper does.

Oscar Wilde

DanS.

That and it's impossible to not only forsee all events but to also prevent them. Hell look at all the resources our govt. dumps into stopping drugs from getting into this country...and from what I understand there still manages to be some small amounts that make through every now and then.

anhailla

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/pl...ntvictimid.htm
Experts ID 184 Pentagon Fatalities
News & Media - News Releases

by Christopher C. Kelly
Public Affairs, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology

What some experts have called "the most comprehensive forensic investigation in U.S. history" ended Nov. 16 with the identification of 184 of the 189 who died in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.

A multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology played a major role in Operation Nobel Eagle investigations, officials said. AFIP is an executive agency of the Army surgeon general.

Many of the Pentagon casualties were badly burned and difficult to identify, an official said. Of the 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were passengers on American Airlines Flight 77. Only one of those who died made it to the hospital; the rest were killed on site. For some victims, only pieces of tissue could be found.

AFIP's team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators and support personnel worked for more than two weeks in the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del., and for weeks at the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville, Md., to identify victims of the attack.

"Our staff represented every branch of service," said Navy Capt. Glenn N. Wagner, AFIP director. "We also received tremendous support from the doctors, nurses and technicians stationed at Dover who participated in the investigation."

AFIP used a well-designed and tested system for identifying the Pentagon victims. When remains arrived at Dover Air Force Base, a scanning device searched for the presence of unexploded ordnance or metallic foreign bodies. FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices and conducted fingerprint identifications.

Forensic dentistry experts then performed dental charting and comparison with existing dental records. Full-body radiographs followed to document skeletal fractures and assist in identification, followed by autopsy inspection. At autopsy, forensic pathologists determined the cause of death, and a forensic anthropologist determined race, sex and stature of victims when necessary.

An epidemiologist managed the tracking system for data collected during the autopsy process, and tissue samples were collected for DNA identification and further toxicology studies. Forensic photographers documented injuries and personal effects. Finally, mortuary specialists embalmed, dressed and casketed remains.

For eight days a full complement of AFIP forensic specialists worked 12-hour shifts to complete the identification system.

From DNA samples sent to the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory, scientists there generated DNA profiles of the victims. Their work also included the victims of United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in Somerset County, Pa.

The DNA lab's entire staff of 102 DNA analysts, sample processors, and logistics and administrative personnel worked 12-hour shifts, seven days a week to complete the work.

DNA identifications for Flight 93 victims were sent to the Somerset County Coroner's Office for release. The Department of Defense released identification of Pentagon victims. All but four who worked in the Pentagon were identified. AFIP identified all but one of the passengers of Flight 77.

From the January 2002 Mercury, an Army Medical Department publication.

For immediate release, Jan. 11, 2002.

__________________
...either I go, or that wallpaper does.

Oscar Wilde

anhailla

http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/co...fp=7&view=full

here's more on how it was done

Radiology 2002;223:7-8.)
© RSNA, 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Editorial

Forensic Radiology: Response to the Pentagon Attack on September 11, 20011
H. Theodore Harcke, Col, MC, ARNG, Joseph A. Bifano, Maj, USAF, MC and Kelly K. Koeller, Capt(S), MC, USN
1 From the Department of Radiologic Pathology, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Washington, DC (H.T.H., K.K.K.), and 436th Medical Group/SGSAR, Dover Air Force Base, Del (J.A.B.). Received November 20, 2001; accepted November 24. Address correspondence to H.T.H., Department of Medical Imaging, Alfred I. duPont Hospital for Children, 1600 Rockland Rd, Wilmington, DE 19803 (e-mail: tharcke@nemours.org).


Index terms: Editorials • Forensic radiology • Specimens, radiography

The U.S. military has a time-honored commitment to its members and their families to recover those killed in service, identify their remains properly, and prepare them for appropriate honors and interment. The continued efforts to find those missing from the war in Vietnam and the recent identification of a serviceman from that conflict who was buried in the Tomb of the Unknowns at Arlington National Cemetery are evidence of this obligation (1). Following the September 11 attack on the Pentagon, as search and rescue efforts began, the process of recovery and identification of those who did not survive was also initiated. Forensic radiology was a key component in the system of casualty identification at the Port Mortuary, Dover Air Force Base, Del. Here, the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner, augmented by a support group of more than 200 military and federal personnel representing all services and many agencies, undertook the identification of remains and forensic investigation of the deaths that occurred at the Pentagon. The military faced a situation unlike past experiences in war and peacetime accidents: a mass-casualty scenario, involvement of military and civilians, and the inclusion of terrorists among civilian casualties.

Radiographic analysis of the remains from this event was a crucial step in the identification of victims and the investigation of the crime scene. The Department of Radiologic Pathology at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, or AFIP, performed this step with support from the Diagnostic Imaging Department of the Dover Air Force Base Medical Clinic. Because of the extraordinary scope of the mass-casualty scenario created by the Pentagon attack, an additional radiologist and military technologists from two reserve components supported the mission. This staff operated up to 12 hours per day, 7 days per week, as required by the volume of recovered remains.

The mortuary has two radiographic rooms equipped with fixed overhead tubes. A daylight film-processing system arrived on the 2nd day of operation to replace a darkroom system. This system greatly reduced the time required to move specimens through the radiographic station. On review of the radiographs, the radiologist completed a report consisting of handwritten notations on a form that showed a schematic skeleton. The comments were brief and were designed to assist those performing other steps in the identification and investigation process, such as forensic dentistry, autopsy, and anthropologic assessment. The report and radiographs traveled with the specimen, and it was easy for professionals at other stations to compare their observations with the report and seek out the radiologist who completed the report for consultation and discussion.

Human remains that are recovered from a disaster site are highly variable in form and condition. Recovered bodies may have been subjected to extreme physical and thermal trauma. Casualties may result from crash impact, building collapse, or associated fire and smoke. The intense heat of burning fuel in aircraft accidents severely burns tissue, clothing, and furnishings. The process of recovery from beneath fallen rubble further alters tissues (2). Consequently, specimens ranging from relatively intact bodies to small body-part fragments were received from the Pentagon site. Whole-body radiography is one step in processing remains received at the military mortuary. Unfortunately, many specimens were received as body parts, often unrecognizable from their gross appearance and mixed with debris from the site. Each specimen designated for processing had an identification number assigned by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that linked it to its recovery location at the scene. Each specimen also received a mortuary control number.

In many cases, the whole-body radiograph established whether body parts, personal effects, or other materials were present in the specimen. The forensic radiologist reported all identifiable human structures and substantial objects recognized, along with comments on the condition of each. For example, we commented on the presence of fractures, the absence of anatomically contiguous body parts, and the presence of jewelry and/or personal effects. Also noted were distinguishing features that may aid in establishing the age of the victim (eg, the presence of skeletally immature bones or osteoarthritis in a knee) and identifying military personnel (eg, the presence of military insignia). The forensic dental team benefited from the discovery of teeth on a radiograph when they may not have been noted previously at gross inspection of the specimen. Since the event was known to be the result of a terrorist action, the radiologist also searched for any clues, such as weapons or aircraft parts, that might lead to a better understanding of the attack.

Interpretation of specimen radiographs poses a number of particular challenges for the forensic radiologist that are not typical for a clinical radiologist. Screening whole-body radiographs provide only one view of the specimen. Because of the very nature of the specimen, radiographs of body parts are often limited initially to a random projection that may not produce a familiar anatomic view of skeletal fragments. While this is particularly true of pieces of flat bones, such as the skull, pelvis, and scapula, a radiographic appearance of a long bone diaphyseal fragment may be problematic. The discontiguous arrangement of one or two vertebral bodies in a nonstandard projection can make identification of the level difficult. It may not always be feasible to obtain a second radiograph of the specimen because of workload and technical factors. In certain circumstances, employing a tested radiographic axiom ("go examine the patient") by directly palpating the specimens in the bag may allow the forensic radiologist to learn more about their three-dimensional characteristics.

There is also the ever-present problem of debris. Virtually every specimen from this site was mixed with debris composed of aircraft and building materials of an opaque and semiopaque nature. Body parts from several individuals may have been mixed into a single specimen. In some specimens, this was apparent because skeletally immature bones and adult bones were contained in the same specimen bag. This is particularly true of appendicular skeletal structures, which are frequently detached during high-velocity impacts such as aircraft accidents (3).

The positive identification of remains is the responsibility of the medical examiner. Those working on individual steps in the process each contribute data used in making the decision. There are instances in which the data make identification relatively easy, and there are other circumstances that make identification impossible. Personal effects are not as substantial as one would imagine. Clothing can be borrowed, cards can be forged or stolen, and pieces can be scattered over distances and recovered with another body. The military anticipates the requirement of obtaining DNA specimens from all personnel and maintaining them in a central repository for postmortem identification purposes (4). In addition, dental records are maintained and usually include a full-mouth pantograph. The existence of a reference database allows relatively rapid positive identification of military casualties. This was, in fact, true with the Pentagon attack, since many more military casualties were positively identified than civilian casualties in the early stages of the investigation.

Radiologic services at the mortuary supported two tasks: remains processing and remains identification. Dental records and DNA reference samples may be sufficient in the final identification step for many military casualties. However, radiography of victims remains an essential asset of this process. This is especially true when reliable dental information is not available or when attempts to collect DNA from victims are hampered. Analysis of DNA is a powerful tool in military casualty identification, but it has limitations. The DNA sources from victims subjected to intense fire may denature and not be recoverable (5). The mass-casualty operation resulting from the Pentagon attack confirms the importance of forensic radiology as a key component of casualty identification.

__________________
...either I go, or that wallpaper does.

Oscar Wilde

Duvidoo

I recall questioning why there was still molten metal some weeks after 9/11. But I've never commented on the so-called squibs ... yes, I said the collapse one after the other seemed suspicious ... and that the angled cut to the column was suspicious ... but these are all things to be taken up in a new, more thorough investigation. I hope for America's sake that the administration was NOT involved.

Agree ... but it's not the conspiracy nuts who keep bringing up Judy Woods and some of the the more insane scenarios (Godzilla, space aliens, etc). The latest lie seems to be about Iran's nukes. It's about time for punishing the spies who let that one out of the bag.

You could be right.

Al Qaeda supposedly wasn't in Iraq until after the invasion. As for Afghanistan, maybe America should have stayed there and finished the job?

__________________

Denie the Delight
retarded Duvi showed up and made a fool of himself followed by you.

Duvidoo

I was responding to the suggestion that little had changed since 9/11. I would have thought that was quite on subject.

(Shaking head in despair.)

__________________

Denie the Delight
retarded Duvi showed up and made a fool of himself followed by you.

sunflower

Then why turn down a FOIA request? You didn't answer the question.

__________________
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act”.

George Orwell

************************************

The owners of this country know the truth. It's called the American Dream....'cos you have to be asleep to believe it.

George Carlin

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...m8fo8ne6xy.gif

sunflower

It is highly unlikely. Yet, it is your estimation that these 19 losers were able to not only find weaknesses in one, but several heavily-funded agencies/departments charged with our "protection".

__________________
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act”.

George Orwell

************************************

The owners of this country know the truth. It's called the American Dream....'cos you have to be asleep to believe it.

George Carlin

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...m8fo8ne6xy.gif