Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor - Page 5

BillCosby · 12-09-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circus

You still haven't answered what you think the US should have done in response to Japanese aggression in the Pacific..... I can't blame you... wouldn't be much to argue about. (Well you never asked... How is this. Firebomb & Nuke the civilians. How is that????.....

Wait, are you trying to say that Japan were part of the good guys during world war 2? (I already answered that. There are no good guys here)

Do you know anything about Manchuria and the slaughters that happened there?
"but but... they were surrounded and provoked"
what a joke. (Yea I know about that & we agree that it was not good but you are oblivious to the american (& other) empires in the pacific & what they did ..... & to the slaughters of ppl in Germany & Japan by the usa & the allies.... THey all did it but you hold only Japan accountable---->>> That is were we disagree........If the usa & the "other" empires. & I do mean the usa as a colonizing world empire here do it you are cool w/ it....... If Japan ((( you could put any country in place of Japan like Iraq, Iran, Guatemala, Nicaragua etcccccc.))). does the exact same thing as the other empires it is an outrage & crime......... Is that hypocrisy

)

I'm not even american. So I don't care if you point out how your country was evil in the past. But ww2? Come on.
I don't think you know anything about Japan in world war 2. ( I know more than I would like. I actually know ppl that were interned during the war, do you??)

According to you, if a country started mass invading nations across the pacific, America has to just sit around, watching, and eating popcorn.
If they try to do anything, they'll just be "provoking".

Quote:

According to you, if a country started mass invading nations across the pacific, Japan

has to just sit around, watching, and eating popcorn.
If they try to do anything, they'll just be "provoking

How many of our little brown brothers did the usa kill while liberating the Philippines from the evil Spanish empire & installing it's own unimperial colony???? Or Hawaii???

Circus · 12-10-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillCosby

(Well you never asked... How is this. Firebomb & Nuke the civilians. How is that????.....

First off, I did ask. It was my last post.

Anyways, all the US initially did was put trade embargoes on Japan. If Japan didn't decide to be the aggressor do a sneak attack against the American Pacific fleet, America wouldn't have firebombed anybody.
As in every other invasion in the Pacific war, it was JAPAN that was the aggressor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillCosby

(I already answered that. There are no good guys here)

Here's a hint. The country that invaded over 10 nations unprovoked while slaughtering their citizens is the "bad guy". The countries that got invaded unprovoked and then entered the war solely in self defense are the "good guys".
"No good guys here". That's nuts. Were the Polish troops defending against the Nazi's good guys or bad guys?
Let me guess.... the Polish "provoked" the poor innocent Nazi's, right? Just trying to see things from your perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillCosby

(Yea I know about that & we agree that it was not good but you are oblivious to the american (& other) empires in the pacific & what they did ..... & to the slaughters of ppl in Germany & Japan by the usa & the allies.... THey all did it but you hold only Japan accountable---->>> That is were we disagree........If the usa & the "other" empires. & I do mean the usa as a colonizing world empire here do it you are cool w/ it....... If Japan ((( you could put any country in place of Japan like Iraq, Iran, Guatemala, Nicaragua etcccccc.))). does the exact same thing as the other empires it is an outrage & crime......... Is that hypocrisy )

You seem unable to stay on topic with the argument in hand. America is bad often. They're big meanie faces, ok? America was the bad guy in Iraq. America was the bad guy in a lot of wars.
But what we're debating here is Japan vs America in ww2. We're talking about who was the bad guy in that war. Who was the aggressor in that war.
You don't have a leg to stand on in this argument, so I can understand why you keep changing the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillCosby

( I know more than I would like. I actually know ppl that were interned during the war, do you??)

Yes. I do know a woman who was interned during the war. I know her quite well.
But what on earth does this have to do with the discussion?
Just another diversionary tactic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillCosby

How many of our little brown brothers did the usa kill while liberating the Philippines from the evil Spanish empire & installing it's own unimperial colony???? Or Hawaii???

Why don't you just start a new thread for every other war you wish to discuss? Because on this thread we're discussing american vs japan in ww2. I agree with you that America was the bad guy in those wars. But what on earth does it have to do with our discussion?

Duvidoo · 12-10-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circus

Were the Polish troops defending against the Nazi's good guys or bad guys?
Let me guess.... the Polish "provoked" the poor innocent Nazi's, right? Just trying to see things from your perspective.

According to William Shirer (and others) the incident which precipitated WWII was a false flag incident at the Polish/German border. The "Poles" were all prisoners of a Nazi concentration camp who pretended to attack a German radio station. They were all killed and the Germans claimed they'd been invaded by Poles.

BillCosby · 12-10-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circus

First off, I did ask. It was my last post.

Anyways, all the US initially did was put trade embargoes on Japan. If Japan didn't decide to be the aggressor do a sneak attack against the American Pacific fleet, America wouldn't have firebombed anybody.
As in every other invasion in the Pacific war, it was JAPAN that was the aggressor.

Here's a hint. The country that invaded over 10 nations unprovoked while slaughtering their citizens is the "bad guy" (~scratches head~ 10 ****ries or ten colonies??? not like it matters when your on the right side anywayZ.. How many countries did the British invade?? The Dutch?? or Americans?? You seem to over look what the "good guys" do

. The countries that got invaded unprovoked and then entered the war solely in self defense are the "good guys". (wrong- Their colony, not their country was invaded.. The Japanese/British/Dutch/Americans all were colonizing & thus had no right to be there IMO

"No good guys here". That's nuts. Were the Polish troops defending against the Nazi's good guys or bad guys?
Let me guess.... the Polish "provoked" the poor innocent Nazi's, right? Just trying to see things from your perspective. ( I have little interest in your strawman arguments, please stick w/ the topic )

America is bad often. They're big meanie faces, ok? America was the bad guy in Iraq. America was the bad guy in a lot of wars.
But what we're debating here is Japan vs America in ww2.

We're talking about who was the bad guy in that war. Who was the aggressor in that war.

discuss? Because on this thread we're discussing american vs japan in ww2. I agree with you that America was the bad guy in those wars. But what on earth does it have to do with our discussion?

Very interesting.... This is the kinda debate I was looking for in the Just war thread... I would hope that you would express your views there when you get a chance. As I stated there, ww2 is not/less cut & dry........

There is no disagreement that Japan was an aggressor. They were not the only aggressor.. The presence of the usa & other western colonizers was not aggression in your opinion...???? I believe that it was aggression w/out question & that I have provided evidence to back it up. Read the Monroe doctrine. It works for us..[quote]The Monroe Doctrine is a U.S. doctrine which, on December 2, 1823, proclaimed that European powers would no longer colonize or interfere with the affairs of the newly independent nations of the Americas. The United States planned to stay neutral in wars between European powers and their colonies. However, if these latter types of wars were to occur in the Americas, the United States would view such action as hostile. President James Monroe first stated the doctrine during his seventh annual State of the Union Address to Congress, a defining moment in the foreign policy of the United States.[/QUOTE]

Should Japan as well as the usa & the other colonizers be subject to the same standards.......????? That is a universal standard applied to one that applies to all????

Circus · 12-10-2007, 04:49 PM

None of the colonies saw the Japanese invaders as "liberators". In fact, many of the colonists fought together with Europeans against the Japanese.

If you want to make the claim that the Europeans were "bad" when they initially conquered the colonies, then fine. I'm acknowledging that a lot of countries are bad, often.

But in regards to the pacific in ww2, it was Japan that was the aggressor. It was Japan that were the "bad guys". It was Japan that were the war mongerers, invading people that just wanted peace.

You seem to have no problems whatsoever acknowledging when the USA and European countries were the "bad guys" at points throughout history. Why do you have such a hard time accepting even the possibility that Japan was the bad guy in this particular war?

Can you immagine if the US started invading 10 countries in the pacific and intentionally slaughtered millions of innocent civilians? There's no way you'd be saying "well, there's no good guys and bad guys here". lol
But Japan seems to get a free pass.

BillCosby · 12-10-2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circus

None of the colonies saw the Japanese invaders as "liberators". In fact, many of the colonists fought together with Europeans against the Japanese. (none is perhaps a strong word here. THer are always collaborators.... But I don't want to get into all that right now. The main weapon the colonist used to prevent it was the promise of freedumb after victory........ Which they eventually & begrudgingly gave when necessary & some had to be forced out... )

If you want to make the claim that the Europeans were "bad" when they initially conquered the colonies, then fine. I'm acknowledging that a lot of countries are bad, often.

But in regards to the pacific in ww2, it was Japan that was the aggressor. It was Japan that were the "bad guys". It was Japan that were the war mongerers, invading people that just wanted peace.

You seem to have no problems whatsoever acknowledging when the USA and European countries were the "bad guys" at points throughout history. Why do you have such a hard time accepting even the possibility that Japan was the bad guy in this particular war? (Incorrect I have not said Japan was not a bad guy. I said there were no good guys. That is not the same. Imagine two thieves fighting for your wallet in the alley... One gets his ass kicked & the other one runs off. Are there two victims or one victim here.???)

Can you immagine if the US started invading 10 countries in the pacific and intentionally slaughtered millions of innocent civilians? There's no way you'd be saying "well, there's no good guys and bad guys here". lol
But Japan seems to get a free pass.

Well my friend I am not giving anyone a free pass. I can name 10 countries in this hemisphere (including your own) that have been invaded by the usa. Many of them more than once.........

Thousands, millions, tens of thousands??? They don't count our victims so I can't say how many innocent civilians they killed....... But I am sure it was also to many.....

Circus · 12-12-2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillCosby

Well my friend I am not giving anyone a free pass. I can name 10 countries in this hemisphere (including your own) that have been invaded by the usa. Many of them more than once.........

Thousands, millions, tens of thousands??? They don't count our victims so I can't say how many innocent civilians they killed....... But I am sure it was also to many.....

And America was the bad guy in regards to those aggressions.
But in regards to ww2, Japan was the bad guy.
It is black and white in this case.

Your agrument seems to be that Japan wasn't the bad guy in world war 2, because sometimes other countries are bad as well. I'm having a hard time following that logic.

VKMHVM2 · 12-12-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvidoo

According to William Shirer (and others) the incident which precipitated WWII was a false flag incident at the Polish/German border. The "Poles" were all prisoners of a Nazi concentration camp who pretended to attack a German radio station. They were all killed and the Germans claimed they'd been invaded by Poles.

Hitler had German troops dressed in Polish uniforms attack the radio station at Gliewitz, then lied to the Germans, telling them Poland had invaded, and marched Germany off into World War Two.

FAKE TERROR - THE ROAD TO WAR AND DICTATORSHIP

BillCosby · 12-12-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circus

And America was the bad guy in regards to those aggressions.
But in regards to ww2, Japan was the bad guy.
It is black and white in this case.

Your agrument seems to be that Japan wasn't the bad guy in world war 2, because sometimes other countries are bad as well. I'm having a hard time following that logic.

I think many issues we are prob in agreement but will not agree on this...

That is fine........

I was not looking for or expecting you or anyone to necessarily agree.. As I stated I am not settled myself & merely exploring the issue here so as to come to a better understanding & help clarify things in my own mind...

Do you believe in universality...????

That is that what we apply to others we also apply to ourselves???

Circus · 12-13-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VKMHVM2

Hitler had German troops dressed in Polish uniforms attack the radio station at Gliewitz, then lied to the Germans, telling them Poland had invaded, and marched Germany off into World War Two.

FAKE TERROR - THE ROAD TO WAR AND DICTATORSHIP

Yet another incident that high ranking Nazi's admitted to orchestrating at Nuremberg.
Again, after all the terrible things these Nazi's admitted to doing, why did they all adamently deny being behind the Reichstag Fire?

12-10-2007, 04:49 PM	#45 (permalink)
Circus Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 580 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	None of the colonies saw the Japanese invaders as "liberators". In fact, many of the colonists fought together with Europeans against the Japanese. If you want to make the claim that the Europeans were "bad" when they initially conquered the colonies, then fine. I'm acknowledging that a lot of countries are bad, often. But in regards to the pacific in ww2, it was Japan that was the aggressor. It was Japan that were the "bad guys". It was Japan that were the war mongerers, invading people that just wanted peace. You seem to have no problems whatsoever acknowledging when the USA and European countries were the "bad guys" at points throughout history. Why do you have such a hard time accepting even the possibility that Japan was the bad guy in this particular war? Can you immagine if the US started invading 10 countries in the pacific and intentionally slaughtered millions of innocent civilians? There's no way you'd be saying "well, there's no good guys and bad guys here". lol But Japan seems to get a free pass.
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