Kanadesaga

I am not real versed in economic theory but would like discuss the merits and drawbacks of each economic system. The more I see capitalism in action, the more I think socialism is the only way to accomplish the goals society deems important. If you want to have unfettered criminality by individuals under the protection of a corporate mask, a burgeoning gap between rich and poor, then capitalism is the way to go.



Any thoughts?

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"Soldiers lose their voice when they enlist. My sons spoke of that before they did enlist. That that, was a reality. And the public is their voice." Mary Tillman 5/9/08

DRS112

eh...if you want equal poverty than socialism is the way to go...seriously though... almost every attempt at socialism has utterly failed...doomed it's people to poverty and expanded the power of the govt.

It breeds inefficiency and destroys any motivation for innovation.

Do you think we're as well off as we are in spite of capitalism, while the socialist countries have failed in spite of being socialist?

Kanadesaga

I'm not talking about an either/or situation. I mean in many aspects we already are socialist. Welfare; corporate and humanitarian are both socialist. Actually any shared endeavor is socialist by nature isn't it? In the early days of this nation many roads were turnpikes, a private enterprise. Now it is not. So I guess my question is where do we draw the line? Why do we say that this area of opportunity is better served by the government and this by private industry? And who makes that choice?

__________________
"Soldiers lose their voice when they enlist. My sons spoke of that before they did enlist. That that, was a reality. And the public is their voice." Mary Tillman 5/9/08

serum114

All forms of government will fail to one degree or another. Human nature by way of greed will destroy all forms of government. But I think what we need to do is except ideas that are wrongly considered socialist plans like universal healthcare. Afterall we don't call fire fighters a socialist machine even though it's financed by tax $$ and was originally orchestrated similar to the way health care is now.

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gorillamom

The only social structures that I have seen that worked were with primates. Hmmmmm.

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The hands may then be still.

DRS112

the idea of what the govt. should provide is based on externalities...things that will be over or under produced(usuall under) by the market. Like the free rider dilema causes the govt. to provide for our defense....if a case can be made that the product or service is being under produced and causing harm to the population because of it, then it becomes a govt. program.....

Third-Way economics is what you're talking about though...and actually I'm doing a lot of research on it right now....so I'll have more info over the next few weeks


oh...but you did start the thread with a title Capitalism vs. Socialism...you could see how I thought it was an either or...

Jonesy

Most people make supporting arguments based on their own brain complexes. These complexes form when they are children. By the time they are adults, the complexes have become completely 'second-nature', meaning the adult does not know what it causing their thinking.

Socialism is only instituted when people feel incapable. It is authoritarian in nature. It has almost no place in a free country. The current socialist programs (other than the education system), have been put into place based on faulty reasoning.

The line is drawn at the point where socialism detracts from freedom. The socialist education system increases freedom, as it is too easy for government to manipulate an ignorant populace.

DRS112

Healthcare is not something that is under produced due to market failures or that one persons can benefit from another paying...if anything healthcare is under produced in it's socialist form...which is not something we need with all of the boomers retiring

Jonesy

Government fails because it is unnatural. Billions of years of complete freedom cannot be changed overnight by government authority.

DRS112

yes this is from wiki...but it's not a bad explanation of what I'm doing such a poor job of trying to explain.

In economics, a public good is a good that is non-rival and non-excludable. This means that consumption of the good by one individual does not reduce the amount of the good available for consumption by others; and no one can be effectively excluded from using that good.[1] For example, if one individual eats a cake, there is no cake left for anyone else, and it is possible to exclude others from consuming the cake; it is a rival and excludable private good. Conversely, breathing air neither significantly reduces the amount of air available to others, nor can people be effectively excluded from using the air. This makes it a public good. These are highly theoretical definitions: in the real world, there may be no such thing as an absolutely non-rival or non-excludable good; but economists think that some goods in the real world approximate closely enough for these concepts to be meaningful.

Non-rivalness and non-excludability may cause problems for the production of such goods. Specifically, some economists have argued that they may lead to instances of market failure, where uncoordinated markets are unable to provide these goods in desired quantities.[citation needed] These issues are known as public goods problems, and there is a good deal of debate and literature on how significant they are, and on what their solutions might be. These debates can become important to political arguments about the role of markets in the economy. More technically, public goods problems are related to the broader issue of externalities