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Old 02-13-2008, 07:03 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Heretic View Post
Except that's a lie and always has been. The earnings of the top executives have always outpaced the wages of its workers.
And? $60,000 to $100,000 a year for a highschool grad to push a button is too much money



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No, that's just the result of a bad business model on the part of the executives. It's amusing to blame the free markets when in fact it was the executives who grossly misread the market and bljundered accordingly.
Grossly misread the market? Even if they could have forseen the rise in oil prices it still takes years to design new vehicles...they gave us what we wanted...hell until the shift in demand the Japaese were trying to break into the same market...the unions in conjunction with the protectionism that the govt. gave the industry made them uncompetitivel...but it was the unions asking for that protection


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If that "statistic" were even ture that'd mean something, but the ugly fact is corporations pay a smaller percentage of earnings to taxes than the middle class [and that's assuming those loophole laced tax laws are even enforced]. It's amusing to see pseudo-capitalists demand no regulation but are the first in line for handouts from the same government they publically say has no place determining the market. I've long rejected all these excuses as should you.
Handouts? no....I don't think that you can equate asking that our money doesn't pay for jobs in other states is a handout.



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When corporations insist on having their own cake, someone else's cake and eating both and still have them they lose the right to bitch. Especially when they then turn around and screw over people who had nothing to do with government policy; the very same people who made sacrafices so their companies could operate in the black.

No, none of the above excuses or distortions will fly. We're just too aware of how the corporate reality is to buy it.
It's not excuses when its reality...the unions screwed us and so did the govt. Ask any factory worker outside of the unions and you'll find out that they're pretty much detested. Their efforts to restrict the labor supply succeeded...but it cost not only their jobs...but the jobs of those in the support industries.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:42 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRS112 View Post
And? $60,000 to $100,000 a year for a highschool grad to push a button is too much money
Try to use an example that actually exists.

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Grossly misread the market?
Yes. Any sensible business person could've seen it. Even as early as 2001 it was clear gas prices would rise, when India and China saw a tremendous increase in car sales as well as overall economic gains and when Jr. talked up his demands for war thye skyrocketed never egain to return to 90's pirces. So anyone dumb enough to hinge their profits on the long term sales of SUV's deserves to go out of business and into bankrupcy.

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Even if they could have forseen the rise in oil prices it still takes years to design new vehicles...they gave us what we wanted...hell until the shift in demand the Japaese were trying to break into the same market...the unions in conjunction with the protectionism that the govt. gave the industry made them uncompetitivel...but it was the unions asking for that protection
Actually the only reason vehicle design takes so long is due to their bad business model... as I already stated. Foreign car companies manaed to beat U.S. manufacturers because they could adapt quickly and because they did in fact see the shift in future trends of what consumers wanted and the rising oil prices.

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Handouts? no....I don't think that you can equate asking that our money doesn't pay for jobs in other states is a handout.
Handouts. Anyone whose been paying attention knows this. Call them "bailouts" if you must, but it's all corporate welfare. This atop their demands for more cuts in taxes there weren't fully paying to begin with.

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It's not excuses when its reality...the unions screwed us and so did the govt. Ask any factory worker outside of the unions and you'll find out that they're pretty much detested. Their efforts to restrict the labor supply succeeded...but it cost not only their jobs...but the jobs of those in the support industries.
The unions didn't screw up when demanding their fair share of rising profits. This is the lie anti-union elitists used to excuse further union busting. And you're also dead wrong about how workers feel about unions. I dare say you've no idea what workers would do to obtain their full rights to collective bargaining via unions.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:52 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Heretic View Post
Try to use an example that actually exists.
lol...do some research then. I've shown the numbers more times than I care. If you want to ignore it fine.


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Yes. Any sensible business person could've seen it. Even as early as 2001 it was clear gas prices would rise, when India and China saw a tremendous increase in car sales as well as overall economic gains and when Jr. talked up his demands for war thye skyrocketed never egain to return to 90's pirces. So anyone dumb enough to hinge their profits on the long term sales of SUV's deserves to go out of business and into bankrupcy.
oh bullshit...Every leader of all the firms was doing the same thing. Noone inside or our was saying a damn thing about it...but I suppose it's easy for you in hindsight



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Actually the only reason vehicle design takes so long is due to their bad business model... as I already stated. Foreign car companies manaed to beat U.S. manufacturers because they could adapt quickly and because they did in fact see the shift in future trends of what consumers wanted and the rising oil prices.
yeah, every manuacturer has a bad business model. I've got a great idea...you've got it figured out...go apply for the CEO position, tell them how to do it...and you can make millions while revolutionizing the industry


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Handouts. Anyone whose been paying attention knows this. Call them "bailouts" if you must, but it's all corporate welfare. This atop their demands for more cuts in taxes there weren't fully paying to begin with.
I'm not asking for it to got to corporations...it could go to anything and I would be happy...so long as it's not robbing money from here to go somewhere else...especially for handouts..



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The unions didn't screw up when demanding their fair share of rising profits. This is the lie anti-union elitists used to excuse further union busting. And you're also dead wrong about how workers feel about unions. I dare say you've no idea what workers would do to obtain their full rights to collective bargaining via unions.

You don't know...you're not from here...you haven't worked in factories for years like I have so your ramblings from Utah mean nothing in this context.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:10 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DRS112 View Post
lol...do some research then. I've shown the numbers more times than I care. If you want to ignore it fine.
You claimed there's a job requiring nothing more than to get a high school diploma and push a button for $100,000. So, as I said, stick to real examples that actually exist rather than some unscrupulous exec's bullshit claims on paper.

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oh bullshit...Every leader of all the firms was doing the same thing. Noone inside or our was saying a damn thing about it...but I suppose it's easy for you in hindsight
Foresight. They all did it because they expected the right wing in government to hand out corporate welfare when it failed, ergo proving my point as stated.

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yeah, every manuacturer has a bad business model.
Evewryone of them that started losing money while giving out golden parachutes to their execs like they were toilet paper.

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I've got a great idea...you've got it figured out...go apply for the CEO position, tell them how to do it...and you can make millions while revolutionizing the industry
It's already well known. It causes me to question how much you really know about this.

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I'm not asking for it to [go] to corporations...it could go to anything and I would be happy...so long as it's not robbing money from here to go somewhere else...especially for handouts..
Except, again, that's not the main problem at work and it never was. It's a myth the extreme right wing fabricated as an campaign gimick. It's easier for corporations to dodge taxes than it ever has been for the last eighty years. Start with the Frontline documentary, Tax Me If You Can and go from there.

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You don't know...you're not from here...you haven't worked in factories for years like I have so your ramblings from Utah mean nothing in this context.
I doubt you yourself know given your open hostility for the rights of workers and your constant excusing of anything corporations do against their employees.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:17 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Heretic View Post
You claimed there's a job requiring nothing more than to get a high school diploma and push a button for $100,000. So, as I said, stick to real examples that actually exist rather than some unscrupulous exec's bullshit claims on paper.
I'm going by an interview the Detroit Free Press did on a forktruck driver who made that. Try again.

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Foresight. They all did it because they expected the right wing in government to hand out corporate welfare when it failed, ergo proving my point as stated.
again...both foreign and domestic didn't see it coming...nor did anybody inside or outside the industry.



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Evewryone of them that started losing money while giving out golden parachutes to their execs like they were toilet paper.
This isn't about that...and even if it was it would have been little more than a drop in a bucket.

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It's already well known. It causes me to question how much you really know about this.
Care to explain...let me know...I know enough people in the industry you could do me a huge favor...I'll be making millions



Quote:
Except, again, that's not the main problem at work and it never was. It's a myth the extreme right wing fabricated as an campaign gimick. It's easier for corporations to dodge taxes than it ever has been for the last eighty years. Start with the Frontline documentary, Tax Me If You Can and go from there.
You're dodging the point...that it isn't about asking for coroporate welfare...that at the very least we shouldn't be paying for it somewhere else.



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I doubt you yourself know given your open hostility for the rights of workers and your constant excusing of anything corporations do against their employees.
If it makes you feel better thinking that...but I'll value your opinion a little more if you spend 10 years working as a laborer in a factory or a foundry.
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