CosmicRocker

whatever. It(sentence) just had that ring,
but I have no desire to get into a flame war with you.

I'm only trying to say that lands west of the Mississippi were gonna be claimed by some " colonial" power.
either the US, Canada, Mexico, or colonized under Spain or France.

It HAD to happen, once North America was being colonized.
no western power was gonna just "Let it Be".

Can you see this ? don't you agree that if we didn't take the land, some other power would have?

__________________

Traveling Wilburys (l to r)

Bob Dylan, Jeff Lynne, Tom Petty, George Harrison, Roy Orbison
```````````````````````````````````````
sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
when you got to choose
every way you look at it you lose

Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkle

Kana

No, you're absolutely right that the American Indians were fucked in any event. But that not a very good defense of Manifest Destiny. It's like the defendant in a car theft case saying, "Well, the keys were in the ignition and the doors were unlocked, and in that neighbourhood, someone was bound to steal it. Might as well have been me, right?"

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Groovyville

CosmicRocker

I can cede the moral point, but the events driving Manifest Destiney were not decided on a moral basis.

All nations work for their best interets.
There was no International Body like the UN, or a concept of human rights.

Looking back at the times, and the driving forces, there really wasn't any other way.

__________________

Traveling Wilburys (l to r)

Bob Dylan, Jeff Lynne, Tom Petty, George Harrison, Roy Orbison
```````````````````````````````````````
sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
when you got to choose
every way you look at it you lose

Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkle

Malkavian

...Which basically means that the US is an Empire and expanded just like everybody else. Same as Russia or China.

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Woof!

CosmicRocker

No it means the US ESTABLISHED itself from whole cloth.
( in the case of Manifest Destiney)

Russsia and China have fought wars of EXPANSION
they seek to enlarge their empire over existing states.

__________________

Traveling Wilburys (l to r)

Bob Dylan, Jeff Lynne, Tom Petty, George Harrison, Roy Orbison
```````````````````````````````````````
sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
when you got to choose
every way you look at it you lose

Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkle

DanS.

unfucking believable....how do you suppose that that land didn't belong to anybody before?

Because they didn't have a western style government?

Malkavian

There were people living here before colonists showed up. US killed a large part of them, and herded the survivors into reservations. A lot of the Indian tribes did not go willingly, and US fought battles with them. How is that not a war of expansion?

__________________
Woof!

Kana

They must not have had flags.

__________________
Groovyville

DanS.

yeah...and actually that's a nice way of saying they were "lesser" beings....so it's okay.

CosmicRocker

I laid out tons of argument that Manifest Destiny was gonna happen.
either we took the land, or Spain, France, Canada, or Mexico would have.

I laid out reasons the US needed to expand form sea to sea.

The Native Americans had no chance, once Europeans got here.

Who "owned " the land was never a consideration - it was gonna be taken.

I do understand the Natives had no concept of ownership, and they would neevr have respected US borders.


The way it was done was far fromideal, but again we are looking back thru 21st eyes.

There was no concept of Human rights back then.
To overlay our morals, on 18th century America, is revisionism.

__________________

Traveling Wilburys (l to r)

Bob Dylan, Jeff Lynne, Tom Petty, George Harrison, Roy Orbison
```````````````````````````````````````
sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
when you got to choose
every way you look at it you lose

Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkle