OldManOnFire

Speculators do not affect national security. At the most they only affect prices. And these prices are based on 'international' supply and demand...not just what happens within the USA. Speculators or no speculators, based on the 'world' price of oil, this is what the USA and it's citizens must pay.

And why single out only oil? Water is essential. Food is essential. Electricity is essential. Health care is essential. I'd guess any of these affect national security as much as oil...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

metaldeth_shredder

ya know I've enjoyed many of your posts OMOF,

and there have been a number of times where I think you state an OBJECTIVE valid "argument", raise critical questions, and come to a likely conclusion

something that is refreshing being as many of the members here are extreme and biased in their beliefs/values

however in this instance you need to REREAD my post,

here it is again just as a reference:
most importantly I stand by my quote, and reemphasize it

you are contradicting yourself OMOF
quote:
then you say,

quote:
sounds like a contradiction to me, especially if you understand the implications

Fact:
since prices are affected by speculators, then consequently the fact that they do influence prices affects National Security

quote by OMOF:
I never singled oil out, read my post

I said oil was ONE of those things

quote by OMOF:
I completely agree wth you that the primary factor is that this is a Supply and Demand issue in a Global market, and unfortunately will be for some time.

OldManOnFire

[quote]Either one believes in the commodity markets or they do not. Currently people and institutions from all over the world can speculate, or purchase futures in lots of things. I don't personally see how oil is any different from food or electricity?? As long as this is the way world markets work, I'd say the USA needs to deal with this until the world's nations agree to something else.

I don't really understand how prices of something affects 'national security'??

If the product is still available, no matter the cost, nothing has really changed other than the costs--which have been climbing for decades.

I'll buy into the idea that speculative buying might affect the prices, but I don't buy that this is a big deal. I believe it to be a small deal compared to the supply and demand issue.

I know you said 'one' of those things but my question is why single out oil? Why not just say many things are considered essential, or to use your terms of national security, and that oil is no different than other commodities?

I cannot take credit for what most knowledgeable people are saying about supply and demand. Most people just don't get this...they would prefer to focus on the conspiracies and loopholes, etc. blaming everyone else but themselves. No one will change my position on this...the US is dependent on oil, our consumption has been out of control, the world consumption has been increasing, and all the while supply has been static.

HERE IS THE KEY ISSUE AND ONE THAT WILL NOT GO AWAY SOON...IF EVER: Long ago, when US consumption exceeded US production, and the US government and all it's citizens started their voracious appetite for 'foreign oil' to fill the demands, ever since that moment, our very way of life, the price of oil/gasoline, and inflation has been controlled by OPEC and others based on the world price of oil. The US and it's greedy citizens put themselves in a precarious position, becoming more and more dependent on foreign oil, and now we are 'just beginning' to pay the price for our over-indulgence and ignorance...

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OldManOnFire

Speculation not to blame for oil - report

The $140 (a barrel) oil question: Does the existence of more speculation lift oil prices? In a new study, the International Energy Agency answers 'no.'

By David Goldman, CNNMoney.com staff writer
July 1, 2008: 6:00 AM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- An influential oil-policy group released a report Tuesday arguing that the increase in oil-market speculation is not driving up crude prices. But the study far from ends the debate.

Since 2003, the volume of investment funds in commodity markets - especially oil - rose from about $15 billion to $260 billion, according to the International Energy Agency (IEA), which issued the report.

And many argue that all that extra money sloshing around is to blame for prices doubling from $71 last July to roughly $140 today.

The IEA isn't buying it.

"There is little evidence that large investment flows into the futures market are causing an imbalance between supply and demand, and are therefore contributing to high oil prices," the report said.

Instead, the IEA put the blame for higher crude prices squarely on strong growth in demand coupled with limited growth in supply.

"If supply is constrained and demand is increasing, prices have to rise," read the report.

The IEA argues that if speculation drives prices too high, the market would be unbalanced. Either demand would fall off, or stockpiles would rise. Neither has happened.

In fact,global demand for oil products has surpassed supply in every quarter since the fourth quarter of 2006, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

Fast-growing economies like China and India are consuming more and more oil. Meanwhile, it's difficult for oil-producing countries to quickly ramp up output.

The IEA also made the argument that many commodities - such as coal and rice - are showing similar price increases, even those without the possibility of speculation.

Representatives of oil traders agree that supply and demand rules the market, not investors.

"The factor that fundamentally affects the price of a commodity is the availability and demand for it," said Greg Zerzan, the head of global public policy for the International Swaps and Derivatives Association. The trading price "merely reflects the expectation of the movement of the price of oil."

Furthermore, even if more speculators believe the price of crude will go up than those who think it will come down, they still have to find a buyer at the price they want to sell it, said Zerzan.

Debate not settled
The IEA report is just the latest of several recent reports that downplay the role of speculators.

However, several respected analysts testified before Congress last week and argued that investor money at least in part raises the price.

Even analysts who concede the laws of supply and demand are the most significant say that speculation can make price swings more volatile - and that's what's going on now, they say.

"The fundamentals have been fairly firm, but speculation exacerbates the trends," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst with the Oil Price Information Service. "More and more money is going into buy-and-hold contracts that simply buy and roll into the next month."

If speculators simply buy and hold oil contracts, then they are not reflecting the current supply and demand.

"We need speculators who buy and sell... and sell, and buy, and buy, and sell," said Peter Beutel, an oil analyst with Cameron Hanover.

IEA says supply and demand - not speculation - boosts oil - Jul. 1, 2008

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Chuckweirdstone

This is as easy as it is obvious. The oil companies are trying to take over the world. They want all our money and anyone buying their bullshit accuses is blind. We could build more refineries and drill more of our own oil . Only sell it to the united States instead of China and Shoot the first son of a bitch that tries to bullshit us with fake science. All this supply and demand is crap. The oil companies days are numbered and the handwriting is on the wall. They just want to screw us while the screwing is good. What good does it do to drill more oil off shore if its all going to go to china. Those pirates are going for ALL the money and I don`t believe one politician will do more than spout empty words in protest. After all their job depends in part on rafting down the river of bullshit and Oil.
The very definition of a politician is to be able to tell the public to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. Enjoy your trip. I`m not buying this for one minute.

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OldManOnFire

So in your conspiracy-laden mind...all of these companies and others are in cahoots to 'take over the world'??

As of April 2007 here are the list of the biggest petroleum companies in terms of oil reserves, figures in billions of barrels:

Saudi Arabian Oil Company 295
National Iranian Oil Company 287
Qatar Petroleum 165
Abu Dhabi National Oil Company 137
Iraq National Oil Company 137
Gazprom 115
Kuwait Petroleum Corporation 107
Petróleos de Venezuela S.A. 102
Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation 62
National Oil Corporation (Libya) 45
Sonatrach 40
Rosneft 35

This is a selected list of petroleum companies in alphabetical order.

Assam Company Ltd (ACL), India
Abu Dhabi National Oil Company (ADNOC), United Arab Emirates
Alon USA, United States
Amerada Hess Corporation, United States
Anadarko Petroleum Corporation, United States
Apache Corporation, United States
Arbusto Energy, United States
Atlantic Petroleum, Faroe Islands
BG Group, United Kingdom
Bharat Petroleum Corporation Limited, India
BHP Billiton, Australia
BP, United Kingdom
Cairn Energy, India
Canadian Natural Resources, Canada
Chevron Corporation, United States
Citgo, Venezuela
CNOOC Ltd., China
ConocoPhillips, United States
Crown Central Petroleum, United States
Cupet, Cuba
Devon Energy, United States
Ecopetrol, Colombia
Enbridge, Canada
EnCana, Canada
ENSCO International, United States
Eni, Italy
Entreprise Tunisienne d'Activites Petroliere (ETAP), Tunisia
ExxonMobil, United States
Galp Energia, Portugal
Petronet LNG Limited, India
Gujarat Gas Co. Ltd., India
Gujarat State Petroleum Corporation, India
Gulf Oil, Luxembourg
Grupa LOTOS, Poland
Hellenic Petroleum, Greece
Husky Energy, Canada
Imperial Oil, Canada
INA - Industrija Nafte, Croatia
Indian Oil Corporation, India
Irving Oil, Canada
Kerr-McGee, United States
Koch Industries, United States
Kuwait German Petroleum Company, Canada
LUKoil, Russia
Marathon Oil Corporation, United States
Maxol Group, Republic of Ireland
MedcoEnergi, Indonesia
Mol Group, Hungary
Naftna Industrija Srbije, Serbia
National Iranian Oil Company (NIOC), Iran
National Oil Corporation, Libya
Neste Oil, Finland
NNPC,Nigeria
Oil & Gas Development Company Limited, Pakistan
Occidental Petroleum
Oil India Limited, India
Oman Oil Company (OOC), Oman
OMV, Austria
ONGC, India
PKN Orlen S.A., Poland
PSO, Pakistan
Petróleos de Venezuela, Venezuela
Petroleos Mexicanos, Mexico
Petro-Canada, Canada
Petrobras, Brazil
PetroChina, China
PetroKazakhstan, Canada
Petrom, Romania
Petron Corporation, Philippines
PETRONAS, Malaysia
PETROTRIN, Trinidad and Tobago
Pertamina, Indonesia
Polish Oil and Gas Company, Poland
Qatar Petroleum, Qatar
Reliance Industries Limited, India
Repsol YPF, Spain
Rompetrol Group N.V., Romania
Royal Dutch Shell, Netherlands, United Kingdom
Santos Limited, Australia
Sasol, South Africa
Saudi Aramco, Saudi Arabia (the largest in the world)
Shell Canada, Canada (subsidiary of Royal Dutch Shell)
Shell Oil Company, United States (subsidiary of Royal Dutch Shell)
Sinclair Oil, United States
Sinopec, China
Sonangol, Angola
Sonatrach, Algeria
SPC, Singapore
StatoilHydro, Norway
State Oil Company of Azerbaijan, SOCAR Azerbaijan
Sunoco, United States
Suncor Energy, Canada
Surgutneftegaz, Russia
Syncrude, Canada
Talisman Energy, Canada
Todd Energy, New Zealand
Total, France
United Refining Company, United States
Vaalco Energy Inc., United States
Wintershall, Germany
Woodside Petroleum, Australia
YPFB, Bolivia
YUKOS, Russia

Per gallon you pay much more for junk like mouthwash but why aren't you complaining about mouthwash costs?

I have provided a couple of articles about supply and demand and there are hundreds more written by people who have done their research. Yes there are other cost factors but supply and demand is creating the bulk of the increased cost.

Unless the oil companies in the USA are federalized, you must remember they are private companies trading products in a world market--this means they can sell their products to the highest bidder including China or whomever.

Oil companies just as with any other natural resource days are numbered--probably 50-100 years or more to go! Contrary to your term 'screwing', oil company profits as a percentage of revenue have been quite normal--in the 10-12% ranges. The only reason they are making more profits in terms of dollars is because the consumption of oil/gasoline is out of control.

Like I said the only way to stop this is to federalize oil. If they are restricted to selling only within the USA, and if USA prices will be much lower than the open markets, what would be their incentives to invest billion$ in exploration and drilling only to have questionable profits??

Your problem and that of others is you seem to believe that there is some magic solution to THE WORLD PROBLEM OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND OF OIL?? You do not understand that every single day, demand goes up and supplies remain static and in economics this means the prices will increase! Drilling for more oil does nothing but give US citizens the green light to consume even more which does nothing other than prolong the inevitable. Most knowledgeable people and the US government have known about limited supplies of oil for decades!! They have also known that 65% of the US oil consumption comes from foreign oil!! And everyone, including you, has gone along with this knowledge believing this day would never come. The only solution to the oil crisis is to reduce consumption and this requires change from all levels of government and all citizens.

Pay attention to some simple math. The US has been the largest consumer of oil in the world and we've only had 250 to 300 million citizens during this time. China, India, Africa and others have approximately TEN TIMES the population as the US. As they are industrializing, their potential consumption will be ten times what the US consumption is. IF you are having problems with oil cost today, and you don't think it has anything to do with demand, please explain what you believe happens to the cost of oil when these developing countries are consuming 2, 3, 5 times as much as the US????

I'll tell you what...it won't only be high prices...there will be very limited supplies...meaning no gasoline for you and me...and when we can get it the price might be $10/gallon. This is a valid scenario!!!

I suggest that you...and me...and everyone stop blaming everyone else for this problem, go look in the mirror, and ask 'what can I do to deal with this growing crisis???'...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

mentor

My question is "Why is gas Soooo cheap in America?"

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Now the hard work begins...

OldManOnFire

Crude oil, refinery and distribution costs are basically the same all over the world...excluding those nations who heavily subsidize.

The main cost difference are the tax rates applied by the city, state and federal levels...about $.57 total in CA.

If twenty years ago when crude oil was cheaper, and gasoline was selling for $1.50/gallon, the feds would have increased their 18.4 cents per gallon tax to $1.00 per gallon, all that extra money over all those years could have built a more efficient infrastructure and R&D for alternatives. Today the US culture cannot tolerate $4/gallon so it's too late to start charging a more appropriate tax.

On one hand to keep taxes low it helped fuel the economic boom in the US, however, the downfall is that we put all our eggs into one gas basket, ignoring the crumbling infrastructure and not pursuing alternative transportation, and now we are paying the price for our carelessness...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

Chuckweirdstone

Bull Shit. I`m saying It`s raining shit and they say it`s fartin rainbow`s all over the world. Their fucking us every day of the year, every hour, every minute, every second. Their lying. Give me a break.

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OldManOnFire

It's really sad that you cannot comprehend some additional information which surely has a major role in the price of gas. Why people like you believe very complex issues can be boiled down to your black and white and narrow perspective serves no purpose other than to ignore reality.

I'd be curious to know what your solutions might be to high gasoline prices???

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...