brian_wilbanks

I do know that DC is easier to regulate. That's why it's used to power locomotives

__________________



If you don't like my fire, then don't come around, cuz I'm about to burn one down.

OldManOnFire

Excellent point about LED lighting...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

OldManOnFire

This is exactly why I am confused about this. But now I'm learning that if the DC voltages are 10,000 volts or much higher then they actually have less transmission loss than AC.

But I'm a proponent of creating electricity locally and with alternative energy technology, at least in my eyes, there is no reason to proliferate more high voltage power lines across the country...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

OldManOnFire

In a solar farm with hundreds/thousands of panels, if they connect the cells in 'series' doesn't this add the voltage outputs?? Or are they connected in 'parallel' in which they are generating 12/24/48 volts which then would need to be stepped-up to connect to a HVDC line?

I'm guessing, as usual, that if there was truly a need for a HVDC backbone, that the utility companies would be all over this like a bum on a ham sandwich! Seems to me they make tons of money owning power transmission lines so why would they not simply install them if there was a need??

We live on vineyard land in the hills of North Bay CA. Our land is rolling with vines in cleared spaces and huge fir trees in other spaces. We chose to build our house on the highest hill on the property, and this hill has lots of trees. So when we got information on installing solar, since anywhere near the house is trees, we needed to place the solar panels somewhere in the vineyard which is in full sun. But to do this, the nearest location is about 500 meters from the house. But...the low DC voltage created by the panels cannot travel that far without significant loss, so DC/AC inverters must be installed at the panels and now an AC line must be run across the area instead of a low voltage and much safer line.

Cold fusion...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

Titanium Cat

It might be a combination of the two depending on how the panels are integrated into each array and how the arrays are hooked together but I really don’t know much about the specifics. I doubt they’d go up to a level of 500kV or so which is probably the minimum you’d want for new DC transmissions, that would be a lot to be playing with on a ground level collection system.

I can think of a couple of reasons. One it will be expansive so they’d prefer that the government paid for part of it or at least mandated the development in a way that guaranteed profitable access to AC power grid markets. The purpose would be to make green renewable sources in remote areas more competitive with the construction of new dirty sources. The major producers (with the most capital to invest) which rely heavily on coal generated power might not think it was a good investment, they’d prefer to build new plants closer to their customers.

Two, such transmission lines would cross a variety of state lines and potentially both private property and government protected areas such as parks. Various agencies might not approve zoning regulations if they suspect the lines would be used to transmit dirty power.

An interesting problem (which I wish I had) but one that is pretty atypical of most localized power generation at least in urban settings where the vast majority of people live.

I think it will be more than a few years before we have any sort of practical cold fusion system and even longer before we start producing a significant amount of power from them.

__________________

Where have you gone, Environment Man?
Our message board turns its lonely eyes to you.
What's that you say, EvilMonkey?
Crazy E-man has left and gone away.

brian_wilbanks

Placed in series, you do indeed add to the voltage. But when in paralell, you keep the same voltage but your current is increased.

And when you convert from low voltage to high voltage, and also run through a bridge rectifier to convert it to AC the current is likewise reduced.

from what I have read, sunlight contains about 1 KWH per square meter. I'm sure our current solar panels aren't efficient enough to utilize all this energy though. Much of it is simply converted to heat which is disipated. But even with solar cells that are 100% efficient, 1KWH is all you can get out of 1 sq meter of surface area.


Until someone can prove me wrong, I believe cold fusion is a myth....like perpetual motion or that car that I keep hearing people claim is locked away in their neighbors garage that gets 400 mpg and runs either on water or vegetable oil.

Proof is in the pudding and to me, Newtons laws are still rock solid.

__________________



If you don't like my fire, then don't come around, cuz I'm about to burn one down.

OldManOnFire

QUOTE=Titanium Cat;172358

Just seems to me if there was money to be made, whether the energy companies paid for it themselves or needed help from the government, they would already be lobbying for it. Is Kennedy the only person to see the benefit?

Those current coal operators have seen the writing on the walls where locals and the federal government are not so keen on allowing any more coal power plants. Until they can scrub 100% of the CO2 from their emissions, their growth is done.

The right of eminent domain usually cannot be stopped once someone makes the decision to build. If a HVDC line makes any sense at all, except for my position of creating and supplying power locally, then it should be built.

There are also a vast quantity of people who live in rural areas and these are the people, at least in my opinion, who are initiating the growth in solar and wind installations. When we want AC power to another part of our land the energy companies have no problems quoting $50K to $100K cost! We get tired of power outages each time one of billions of trees falls and breaks the power line while we wait 1-2 days for service. And like most everyone, we don't like being held hostage in a monopoly situation.

I was just joking some about cold fusion. If it was going to work I think someone would have figured it out by now. As I sit in my office, perched high on our hilltop, watching the wind blow the trees around, enjoying the bright and warm sunshine, I can't help but believe that the answer to our power issues might be right in front of our eyes. We know we can harness solar and wind, although with low efficiencies, but I'm guessing there's another science or math at play that is yet to be discovered...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

OldManOnFire

I don't see all the fuss in this HVDC line? I'd rather keep the low DC voltages at the solar panels, run it into the DC/AC inverter, then run this AC voltage to the AC grid. If someone wishes to install ten thousand solar panels five miles from the nearest AC grid, then it is their job and cost to connect to that grid. Even if there was a HVDC grid, the same problem exists of accessing these remote areas.

I don't know the science and math comparisons, but I've read that solar 'heat' collectors are much more efficient than photovoltaic collection...and cheaper! In this case, thousands of mirrors collect sunlight and redirect it to a collector, in which oil or a salt solution is heated to extremely high temperatures, which in turn creates steam, which run turbine generators, which create electricity. And...these oil and salt solutions can maintain much of that heat during non-sun times so as long as it continues to produce steam, power is being created.

The USA and other nations, for several years now, have been building the international space station, and the technology to provide electricity for all of their needs, is photovoltaic and battery storage. If this can be done efficiently on the space station, then why is there such debate at home about converting to solar and wind?????

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

BleedingPinky

Perhaps because it is extremely expensive first hand. A neighbour across the door has solar panels installed up at the roof. The first time I was aware of it I thought, hey! that´s neat! Then after I spoke with him about the costs, well, it is like spending a lot of money on whatever hi-tech diesel car. After doing your math you realize you will not start saving money after the damn car is 4-5 years old. Same happens with wind mills. I don´t know why, but there are hundreds of them at Tarifa, and yet they still haven´t reached a reasonable level of reliability. Beats me.

Titanium Cat

I don’t know. You are the one who brought Kennedy up and the entire topic of DC transmissions in the first place, not me. I corrected your confusion about what Kennedy was talking about. Is it a good idea, I’m not sure. However I can speculate as to why Kennedy thinks it is a good idea and that’s what I did. Would it actually justify the cost, well that would require a level of detail and analysis that I don’t see available right now.

Hopefully so but they aren’t going quietly hence a variety of new PR campaigns on their part. Regardless it doesn’t mean they would decide to invest in a power backbone that would benefit green only energy sources which is what Kennedy was suggesting.

Come on, “should be” when it comes to government regulatory agencies is often not reality. The EPA shouldn’t be overruling states that are trying to implement emission reduction plans but that hasn’t stopped them from doing it.

Okay but even if you look at the 20% or so of rural residents I still think your situation is fairly atypical. I bet most places, especially in the wide open central US, have relatively small problems installing the solar panels right on their rooftops or very close to their houses and don’t need to convert to AC to transfer the power to their house. Regardless what’s it got to do with a DC power backbone? The US will not be able to solve its energy/emission problems with localized power production alone; it’s just one piece of the solution.

All the more reason for you to localize. You do have to remember than millions of people don’t have such power supply problems and so they don’t rationalize the need for local production as much even if there are other good reasons for them to do. They will still need grid power because solar and wind are intermittent and it will be quite some time before they can be overdeveloped and used in combination with an energy storage system.

Yeah I know but somebody has to play the straight man.

All the more reason to give people incentives to exploit that unused power.

__________________

Where have you gone, Environment Man?
Our message board turns its lonely eyes to you.
What's that you say, EvilMonkey?
Crazy E-man has left and gone away.