BillCosby

Go take your meds & read what your wrote.............

This conflict is hardly the only thing preventing world peace.... African genocides do count..................

IMO it is not the conflict itself but the preoccupation w/ it.........
"Our oil" close by may have something to do w/ that.....

__________________
Preventive war is not war!!!!Counter-terror is not terror

Jonesy

Obviously the true source of this conflict is a religious philosophy. Instead of trading help for help, equally and fairly, religious Jews try to trade help for help only when it is more profitable for them. Maybe this can result in profit for both parties, but it isn't fair or desirable for the other party.

hotair

Here we have a very visible demonstration of the problems of Bush’s ‘Road Map to Peace’ plan. I appreciate that Bush wants his own Nobel Peace Prize, so he can be just like Carter, Gore, (and very soon Bill Clinton). Put his plan to bypass the Oslo Accords is doomed to fail, no matter how badly he wants his little bobble.

The Israeli government cannot be seen negotiating with Abbas, as long as Hamas is shelling Israeli citizens. (And Hamas knows this, only too well) Abbas cannot be seen negotiating with Israel, as long as the Israelis are being forced to do his dirty work for him. (Which Hamas also knows, only too well) Hamas is the PA’s problem, and should be dealt with by the PA, rather than making the Israelis do it! But Abbas, and the rest of the so called PA, do not want to clean their own house. For them it is easier, and in their eyes, a lot less messy to make the Israelis do it for them.



Clashes threaten Israeli-Palestinian peace talks
Jewish state under pressure, mostly from Europe, to ease blockade of Gaza

Mohammed Salem / Reuters

updated 5:03 p.m. CT, Sat., March. 1, 2008
JERUSALEM - Even if fledgling Israel-Palestinian peace talks survive the latest round of bloodletting in Gaza, the violence underscores a growing sense that time is running out for Israel and moderate Palestinians to forge a deal.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's visit to the region this week will be less about moving the peace process forward than saving it from collapse.

Four days of intense fighting between Israel and Hamas-ruled Gaza has killed scores of Palestinians and several Israelis, and brought militant rocket barrages closer to the heartland of Israel.

It has also torpedoed any goodwill emerging from the peace talks. Leaders of the moderate Palestinian government based in the West Bank on Saturday threatened to suspend the negotiations.

If Hamas provokes Israel into a ground invasion of Gaza — which appears increasingly likely — more casualty tolls like week's would make it all but impossible for moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to be seen talking to Israel.

Hopes weren't high when the talks were formally launched in November at a peace conference hosted by President Bush in Annapolis, Maryland, following seven years of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed.

Yet before the latest outburst of Gaza violence, some surprising bright spots had emerged in the talks: Both sides were reporting good chemistry among the main players, negotiators had been getting together almost every day and putting aside their old habit of turning talks into gripe sessions.

But after Saturday's bloodshed in Gaza, Abbas and his chief negotiator, Ahmed Qureia, used words like "genocide," "massacre," and "international terrorism" to describe Israel's actions.

Israel said it had no choice but to act decisively to protect some 200,000 of its citizens now living within range of Hamas rockets.

The peace talks faced enormous obstacles even before the latest violence.

Palestinian leaders complained of slow progress and provocative Israeli actions: construction on disputed land, refusal to ease restrictions on Palestinian movement in the West Bank and a recent decision to prolong the closure of key Palestinian institutions in east Jerusalem.

Is peace a realistic goal?
Israelis said the Palestinians had a long way to go before achieving the security competence necessary for any Israeli pullback from the West Bank.

Add to all this the fragility of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's governing coalition, which is in danger of falling with any peace concession, and both sides began questioning whether Bush's stated goal of reaching a peace treaty this year was realistic.

If the peace talks don't bear fruit soon, however, the escalating violence in Gaza will almost certainly undermine efforts to bolster moderates and isolate Hamas — intensifying the hostility between Israelis and Palestinians and perhaps dealing the peace camp a fatal blow.

Before the latest violence, participants had reported a friendly atmosphere not seen since the most promising days of peacemaking between slain Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

Abbas at one point referred to Olmert with an Arab honorific, "Abu Shaul," or "Father of Shaul," his first-born son. Olmert recently held an umbrella for Abbas in the rain.

The two leaders had been meeting every two weeks, greeting each other with an embrace, eating lunch together, swapping jokes. The last 15 minutes of each 90-minute encounter had been spent without aides, exchanging frank thoughts in English.

By all accounts, each had sought to allay the other's deepest suspicions — such as Abbas' assurances to Olmert that he need not worry about millions of Palestinian refugees flooding Israel. The talks were businesslike, focusing on a framework for Palestinian statehood, participants on both sides said.

Honoring agreements
The two sides have largely honored their agreement not to divulge details of the negotiations, aware that doing so would likely thwart progress by stirring up opposition.

Still, it's clear to all that no treaty is likely to be implemented while Hamas clings to power in Gaza, exchanging blows with Israel.

In recent weeks, the Jewish state has come under increasing pressure, especially from Europe, to ease its blockade of Gaza and open the territory's shuttered borders because of the humanitarian hardships the policy is causing ordinary Gazans.

With this week's fighting, it appears unlikely Israel would consider easing the blockade — a reality that could embolden extremists and increase hatred for Western-backed peacemakers.

Assuming that peace talks survive, the prevailing hope is that progress in negotiations will tip the balance away from Hamas and in favor of the moderates.

Yet in the blood-soaked regions of Gaza and southern Israel, peace today seems as distant as ever.


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.



All of which allows the rest of the world to further justify its policy of encouraging terrorism, by insisting on punishing the victims. The very real double standard, that is apparently based on the premise that Jews are not actually real people. Where was all of this righteous indignation when Hamas was shelling the Israelis? But, when the Israelis are forced to take the necessary actions to defend themselves, the world uses words like genocide, and holocaust to their actions. Shelling Jews is fine, but it is just plain criminal when they fight back.

If does force me to wonder what to expect when someone decides to replace the word “Jews” with “Americans”? Oh . . . That is right! It has already happened, back on September 11, 2001!!! It is only ok, if it is happen to someone else I guess!

Fine . . . So let us all agree to interchange the terms ‘self defense’ with genocide. Never mind that this is going to belittle the deaths of everyone who has ever been the victim of ‘real’ genocide!!! We are now going to be providing people who actually do commit genocide, with a justification for doing so. Do people really have such a short memory?

All of which just supports my theory, that no one really wants peace.

__________________
So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!

Jonesy

There are two types of Jews: racial and religious (some Jews are both). I'm a racial Jew and i'm tired of getting screwed because of religious Jews. They always try to verbally/intellectually merge the two, as if there is no difference... calling anyone who is anti-religious Jew an 'anti-semite', acting like it is something racist. There is nothing racist about being anti-religion.

Being anti-religious Jew is the same as being anti-Christian.

hotair

Peace? Yes!!! Talks with Hamas? Only in your dreams!!!

While it is true that Israelis want peace? Which is to say . . . An end! Right now very few of them actually care how it happens any more!!!

In Israel, some see no option but war
As rockets torment Sderot, support broadens for ground assault on Gaza

updated 2:39 a.m. CT, Mon., Feb. 25, 2008
SDEROT, Israel - Aharon Peretz has spent most of his 51 years in this cactus-fringed, working-class town, and he would like to stay.

But his wife and six children feel differently: Daily retreats to the basement during rocket strikes from the nearby Gaza Strip have frayed their nerves, and an attack that cost an uncle both his legs has convinced them it's time to go.

Peace will return for his family, Peretz has decided, only if Israel chooses to go to war with his neighbors.

"There is no other option," he said. "Israel must enter Gaza and deal seriously with those who are launching these Qassams," as the crude rockets are known.

That sentiment is gaining currency across Israel, and the political rhetoric is growing more bellicose. With each new barrage of rockets, the government comes under greater pressure to conduct a massive military operation that might improve conditions in Sderot, but could also entail heavy casualties on both sides and further undermine the already anemic U.S.-backed peace process.

The government has so far resisted the calls for a wider war beyond its present Gaza strategy of intense political pressure, a crushing economic embargo and frequent military strikes targeting those suspected of responsibility for the rockets. A full-scale invasion, officials say, could backfire and benefit Hamas, the armed Islamic movement that controls the territory. Israel also insists it does not want to be drawn back into Gaza less than three years after it withdrew its settlers and troops.

But Defense Minister Ehud Barak said this month that the military had been ordered to draw up plans for a ground assault in Gaza, and other top government officials have talked openly of toppling Hamas. Politicians on both the right and the left say that they expect a major operation and that all it will take to trigger one is for a Qassam to fall in the wrong place.

"Time is running out," said Defense Ministry spokesman Shlomo Dror. "One of these days, a Qassam will hit a bus, and then what do we do? Can the Israeli government stand against the people of Sderot?"

Cost of an invasion would be high
Still, Dror said, the cost of an invasion would be high. Gaza is one of the world's most densely populated places, with likely military targets scattered throughout civilian areas. The military estimates that in a full-scale invasion, about 100 Israeli soldiers and 1,000 Palestinians would die, he said.

The Qassams have made life difficult in Sderot, a desert town of 20,000, and other areas near the Gaza border. But so far, casualties have been limited.

By contrast, over the first two months of the year, Israeli military operations involving both ground troops and airstrikes have resulted in the deaths of 126 Palestinians, according to health officials in Gaza. The Israeli military says that in the past three months, 180 Palestinian fighters, as well as 13 civilians, have died during its operations.

"What's coming out of Gaza is not a strategic threat," said Shalom Harari, a former top Israeli military intelligence official. "It's terrible. It puts political pressure on the government. But it's not a strategic threat."

Harari is concerned it could soon become one, however, as Hamas gains military strength through support from Iran. That assistance could in time mean rockets with much longer range and far greater accuracy and lethality, he said. The government's critics on the right raise the same concern in arguing for the Israel Defense Forces to go into Gaza as soon as possible. The number of Israelis under threat from the rocket fire, they say, is bound to grow unless the military acts.

"Soon enough, they'll also threaten Tel Aviv if we do nothing to stop them," said Yuval Steinitz, a lawmaker from the Likud Party, which advocates a hard-line policy in dealing with the Palestinians.

Steinitz said the military would have to occupy Gaza for, at most, a few months. In that time, he said, Israeli forces could eliminate Hamas's weapon stockpiles, destroy the rocket launch sites and reassert control over the Egyptian border, where explosives are smuggled in. The casualties may be high, he said, but the operation would save lives in the long run.

"I'm not saying it will be easy. The world, at the beginning, might condemn us," Steinitz said. "But this is the only real solution. This war of attrition is not good for us. No state would tolerate daily rocket attacks on its soil."

No guarantees
There is no guarantee, however, that a major military operation would succeed in stopping the attacks. It could increase them. Military analysts and government officials also worry that Israeli troops would get stuck in Gaza, locked in urban warfare with a guerrilla force that has been preparing for just such a fight.

"You start this operation, and I don't know how you can end it," said Dror, the Defense Ministry spokesman.

Matti Steinberg, a former adviser on Palestinian affairs to Shin Bet, Israel's domestic security agency, said there is a far less costly way to stop the attacks: a cease-fire.

Without one, Steinberg said, Israel is on a path toward war, which could have disastrous consequences for the U.S.-backed peace process that began in Annapolis late last year. "The entire rationale of Annapolis would be doomed," he said.

An invasion, he said, would ultimately strengthen support for Hamas and undercut Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who leads the more secular Fatah movement.

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum agreed. He said the group was expecting a major Israeli offensive and warned that it would only lead to more armed resistance. "Any military operation against Gaza will not give security to the occupation," he said. "It will just increase the popularity of Hamas."

Support from the U.S., EU?
Israeli military sources said that much about the invasion plan remains undecided, including its exact timing, size and duration. The plan would also hinge on support from the United States and key nations in Europe, officials said.

Israel's Gaza policy has already drawn intense international criticism, particularly for its reliance on economic pressure, which U.N. and European Union observers have warned could lead to a humanitarian crisis.

Mark Regev, spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, said Israel's response has been "proportionate and, within the confines of international law, what is considered justifiable self-defense."

But it has not stopped the rocket fire.

On Friday, thousands of Israelis demonstrated their solidarity with Sderot's residents by streaming into the city to shop. Despite the threat, the cloudless winter day took on a carnival-like atmosphere, with DJs spinning dance music and shoppers walking the streets seemingly unconcerned by the possibility of an attack.

"We don't have many days like this," said Michael Amsalam, 58, a town councilman. But he was not optimistic there would be many more.

When a nearby motorcyclist unexpectedly revved his engine, Amsalam flinched, then described what it was like to hear a rocket fall on his town, with nothing to do afterward but brace for the next one.

"Only the ones who live here know the feeling of the Qassam, the feeling of fear," he said.


© 2008 The Washington Post Company



All of which makes me wonder why Hamas has such a hard-on for wanting to return Binyamin Netanyahu to power.

__________________
So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!

hotair

What would you suggest?

I very seriously doubt that bombing Israel will the effect that you are looking for.

Because . . . . Short of that . . . . Americans have already done as much damage as they can.

__________________
So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!

TrueBlueAmerican

Im pretty much at a loss for words. I can only be so militant. Someone somewhere in this world that has the resources is going to have to step up and soon.

BillCosby

Yep............. A fact you don't hear about & overlooked by their gov just like the will of the ppl is overlooked here..........

__________________
Preventive war is not war!!!!Counter-terror is not terror

hotair

It is completely impossible to fix anything, when you do not understand what it is that is broke.

People, many of them on this board (though not limited to this board), have managed to fill their heads with some exceedingly bad data. I do not know who keeps making this stuff up, and I guess that I do not really care all that much.

While I do my best to avoid the use of technical jargon, it is an unavoidably necessity in order to continue this discussion.

GIGO (Garbage In . . . Garbage Out): This highly technical term, is used most extensively by computer programmers. Though it is also popular with intelligence analysts. It is used to described how it is possible for a program to produce erroneous results. Computers, and people, both rely on acquired data to form conclusions. So that when the results are erroneous, it can only be because the input data was wrong in the first place.

An excellent example:
Either this was completely made up, or your information is more than twenty years old. Either way, what possible reason would the government have to care about it? Israel is a Republic, with a Parliamentary style government. It takes less than fifteen minutes for a vote of ‘no confidence’ to implode the government. Any government in Israel that does not listen, does not govern.

Complete with BC’s reply:
You do not “hear about it” anymore, because those polls are something like twenty years old now (see above). Then there is the most obviously erroneous assumption of the concept of the “majority of one” that is being applied here. Governments do listen. But in any Republic the majority rules. The single biggest reason why politicians from other parts of the country are not interested in listening to your opinions, is that you cannot vote for them. Their job is to represent those people who did vote for them!

Another example of the kind of bad data that is out there.
By definition: This is what war is. It just keeps going on until someone wins. It only ends when one side is no longer able to continue fighting.

As for the rest: It has been tried. Was working rather well too, until Arafat returned from exile. Then it went all to hell again. Right now, there is just way too much blood under the bridge for that now, I am afraid!!!

And yet again . . .
World peace? A truly wonderful pipe dream, but completely unattainable as anything other than a pipe dream.


Within the Israeli Parliament, for the last two weeks now. The Likud party, lead by Binyamin Netanyahu, has been busy collecting the necessary support for a vote of “no confidence”! From what I am hearing, as of Friday they have the votes now. Or maybe I should say that, they had enough votes before this current operation within Gaza started. How many votes they still have, is unknown at this time.

What this means.
A vote of “no confidence”would collapse the current government in Israel. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert would become unemployed, along with his entire cabinet. Which would almost certainly trigger an election for a new Prime Minister. Which today would almost certainly be Netanyahu.

The real polls in Israel.
For a number of months now, polls in Israel have established that the Likud party has gained some serious support among the Israeli people. When asked: Who would you vote for, if there were to be an election held today? (Depending on which specific poll you use) The Likud party would pickup between eighty to ninety-five percent of the Parliament. Even assuming that pollsters in Israel are not any better at taking accurate polls, than American pollsters are. This would make Mr. Netanyahu the next Prime Minister of Israel, with a majority government.

What this means.
Well to begin with. A majority government means that there would not be any need for any coalition government. Likud would have an unopposed mandate to operate as they see fit. This is because the Israeli people just want an end. Talks, and negotiations so far, have completely failed. The longer the Israeli government has negotiated, the worse things have gotten. It has become obvious to the average Israeli, that negotiations have failed, and that any continued talks are simply a waist of time.

The Israeli people are demanding an end! Right now, they do not care how it ends, just as long as it does end. Assuming that the current operation in Gaza does not save the Olmert government from the pending vote of no confidence. Within a month Mr. Netanyahu will be doing things his way. While I admit that I do not even pretend to know what maybe in Mr. Netanyahu’s mind, I believe that I could make some very accurate guesses.

__________________
So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!

hotair

It certainly looks like Hamas’ plan is working. At the very least this is going to go a long way to making sure that peace does not breakout anytime soon. This could very well be the beginning of the end, that Hamas seems to want so badly!


“
Palestinians shelve peace talks due to funerals
Israel's Gaza offensive against rocket attacks has killed dozens

updated 8:08 p.m. CT, Sun., March. 2, 2008
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The Palestinian president suspended peace talks Sunday as Israel brushed off international criticism and vowed to press ahead with its Gaza offensive until militants halt rocket attacks.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said an even broader Gaza operation was possible, aimed at crushing militant rocket squads but also to “weaken the Hamas rule, in the right circumstances, even to bring it down.”

The Palestinian death toll rose by 26, bringing the number killed to 114 since the latest bout of fighting erupted on Wednesday, according to Palestinian medical officials and militant groups. At least 54 Palestinians and two Israelis were killed on Saturday, the single deadliest day in more than seven years of fighting.

The Gaza onslaught has failed to protect southern Israel, where residents have faced repeated rocket attacks since 2001. Gaza militants fired more than 25 rockets at southern Israel Sunday, the military said, scoring direct hits on houses in the city of Ashkelon and the town of Sderot. Nine Israelis were injured, rescue services said.

Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said peace talks with Israel had been halted.

“For the time being, the negotiations are suspended because we have so many funerals,” he said. It was unclear when the talks, relaunched last November at a U.S.-hosted summit, would resume.

The violence clouded an upcoming visit by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

The Israeli and Palestinian leaders have set a December target for concluding a final peace deal. But instead of promoting peace, Rice will likely spend her visit this week trying to put out the latest fire.

The Bush administration demanded a halt to the fighting.

“The violence needs to stop and the talks need to resume,” Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council, said in Texas.

New airstrikes overnight
In the early hours of Monday, Palestinians counted nine separate Israeli airstrikes all over Gaza, and five Hamas militants were killed. One attack was near the office of Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, who was not in the area at the time. The Israeli military said aircraft targeted weapons storage and manufacturing facilities.

Israeli troops pulled out of northern Gaza before daybreak after earlier widening their area of operation to about a mile, witnesses and Palestinian security officials said. Also, aircraft attacked two metal workshops in northern Gaza, wounding 10, they said.

But Israeli troops pulled out of northern Gaza before daybreak

The military said two weapons caches were hit and that the troop rotations were routine.

On Sunday, 11 Palestinians, including a 21-month-old girl, were killed, and 10 others died of earlier wounds or were found dead, Palestinian medical officials said.

Roughly half of those killed since Wednesday were civilians, medical officials said. On Saturday, Palestinian leaders called the killings “genocide” and a “holocaust.”

“We are following the aggression against our people in Gaza,” Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas told reporters. He said he had contacted the U.N. Security Council, the EU and Arab leaders “to work to stop this aggression.”

Abbas has wielded little influence in Gaza since Hamas vanquished his forces and took over last June. In a symbolic move, he donated blood for Gaza residents at his West Bank office.

The normally bustling streets of Gaza City were eerily empty. The sound of verses from the Muslim holy book, the Quran, sounding from mosque loudspeakers mingled with the roar of Israeli warplanes and unmanned drones in the sky.

Hundreds gathered outside Gaza hospitals waiting for bodies to be brought out of morgues for burial. Many, like schoolteacher Tawfek Shaban, a 44-year-old father of five, were holding small radios, listening to the news.

“Shame on the Arabs, shame on the Muslims, shame on humanity ... When will they act to stop Israel?” Shaban asked.

The reduced casualty count may have been the result of new measures imposed by Hamas. It told its fighters to use alleys for cover and avoid moving in large groups, ordered schools closed and set up roadblocks to keep civilians out of battle zones. In recent days, schoolchildren had left their studies to watch the fighting. The order forced children to stay at home.

The unrest spilled over to the West Bank, where Abbas and his Fatah faction run a rival government.

In the West Bank town of Hebron, a 14-year-old Palestinian boy was fatally shot in the chest during a protest against Israel, Palestinian medical officials said. It was the first death in the West Bank connected to the Gaza offensive.

An Israeli military spokesman said youths staged a “violent demonstration,” throwing firebombs and putting soldiers at risk. Later about 2,000 angry Hamas supporters marched through the city streets, waving copies of the Quran and green Hamas flags. “Revenge. Revenge. Retaliate in Tel Aviv,” the crowd chanted.

Schools and shops across the West Bank shut down to protest the operation in Gaza and there were demonstrations at traditional flashpoints like checkpoints, watchtowers and patrol routes.

Tear gas used on women
In Ramallah, home to Abbas’ government, club-wielding Palestinian security forces used tear gas and pushed back dozens of women demonstrating in support of Hamas. Security forces tried to stop TV crews filming and clubbed protesters, said Muhib Barghouthi, a photographer who was on scene.

The Gaza offensive also drew a chorus of international condemnation. The EU and U.N. chief Ban Ki-Moon accused Israel of using excessive force. The U.N. Security Council urged Israelis and Palestinians “to immediately cease all acts of violence.”

At the weekly meeting of his Cabinet, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rejected the criticism.

“Nothing will prevent us from continuing operations to protect our citizens,” he said. “No one has the moral right to preach to Israel for taking the elementary step of self-defense.”

Olmert, commenting on the suspension of talks, said “attacking Hamas strengthens the chance for peace.”

“I’m sure that beyond certain statements, the Palestinian leadership, the one with whom we want to achieve peace, also understands that,” he said.

Israel regularly clashes with Gaza rocket squads, but it intensified its operations last week after militants fired salvos into Ashkelon, a city of 120,000 11 miles north of Gaza. By targeting a center like Ashkelon, only 25 miles from the metropolis of Tel Aviv, Hamas raised the stakes and added pressure on Israeli leaders to respond.

Sderot, the town nearest Gaza, has suffered most of the rocket attacks over the past seven years. The rockets have killed 13, wounded dozens and caused millions of dollars in damage.

Egypt has cooperated with an Israeli blockade of Hamas in Gaza, but opened its sealed border crossing with the territory Sunday to allow some of the Palestinian wounded access to medical care.

Egypt sent 27 ambulances to the Rafah crossing to transfer between 150 to 200 wounded, said Imad Kharboush, a medical official at a hospital in el-Arish, near the Israeli border.


© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
“


The question then becomes: Can serious talks be started when this is over? All indications from Israel are that the Israelis are getting fed up with talking, without visible results. The more the government talks, the more Israelis get murdered. Depending on how bad things get in Gaza, and how long Hamas can hold out, it could make things very difficult (if not impossible) for Abbas to return to the table (as it were).

Then there is the question of whether or not this incursion will be successful enough to save Olmert from a pending vote of ‘no confidence’.

__________________
So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!