BillCosby

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Preventive war is not war!!!!Counter-terror is not terror

chambers92

I believe the poll is a recent one from Haaretz. Which makes sense because Hamas was created in 1987 so there was no way Israelis would have felt the need for a dialogue with Hamas 20 years ago. Hamas didn't have any power or control over the Palestinian people back then..

BillCosby

This will come as news to him..................

I posted the article/link above............. He rob will not be back here back for a couple weeks again............

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Preventive war is not war!!!!Counter-terror is not terror

chambers92

Which talks are you refering to? I don't recall that Israel has ever agreed to hold talks with Hamas. Don't you think it's critical for them to start engaging in some sort of dialogue with Hamas? Whether they agree to recognize Israel or not. They need to agree to a cease fire and then start holding some talks. What's the alternative?

Are the raids on Gaza, the collective punishment on the citizens of Gaza, the sanctions, is any of that working? Is Israel any safer? Have the rocket attacks stopped? The answer is no.

Nothing is going to change unless the killing stops. And the settlements start coming down.

chambers92

From the Israeli peace movement, a campaign:

Ceasefire Now!

For translations to Arabic and Hebrew :
הפסקת �ש עכשיו

The escalation in and around the Gaza Strip is causing terrible suffering to people - to men, women, elderly and children, Palestinian as well as Israeli civilians.
The military offensive conducted by the Israeli armed forces has so far caused hundreds of Palestinian casualties; many of them were unarmed civilians. The siege and economic blockade have reduced most of the Gaza Strip's population to abject poverty, devastated its economy, and caused the death of critically ill patients, denied access to vital treatment. The Palestinian attacks on Sderot have severely traumatized its population, far beyond the physical casualties caused among them.

This is not a conflict between two equal forces. The most powerful army in the Middle East, backed by the world's single remaining super-power, is daily using tanks, fighter planes, helicopters and gunships against the lightly-armed militias and overcrowded population of a small area whose people have lived under occupation and in poverty long before the present siege.

Yet the individuals caught in the fighting are all suffering - on both sides of the fighting, among both peoples. The pain of living in daily fear, of being wounded and mutilated for life, of grieving for the loss of loved ones, is the same pain - whether one's country be oppressed or oppressor, occupied or occupier, rich or poor, powerful or powerless.

The attacks on both sides of the border feed on each other and intensify each other. Palestinians in Gaza, rightly feeling themselves still living under occupation despite the Israeli 'disengagement', seek to resist occupation, but when some use launching of rockets against civilians, they manage only to provide an additional justification for tightening the siege on Gaza and the escalation of Israeli violence.

The cycle of violence and bloodshed goes on and on, and the threat of an overall invasion and re-conquest of the Gaza Strip is openly and repeatedly made by the Israeli military and political leaders - with the cost estimated at hundreds or thousands of casualties.

We, the undersigned - Israelis and Palestinians - do not accept this grim reality as inevitable. There is a clear and obvious alternative to bloody escalation and strangulating siege, an alternative providing hope: an end to the siege of Gaza, and a ceasefire and cessation of all hostilities.

The siege of Gaza and the collective punishment of its population are totally unacceptable. It is a medieval form of war which is in utter contradiction to the present norms of human rights and international law - which Israel, as an occupying power, is bound to respect. There should be an immediate end to the siege, unconnected with any other issue, and the Gaza Strip must have free access to the outside world, for the free passage of persons and goods.

It has already been clearly seen that the suffering inflicted on Palestinian civilians in Gaza did not and cannot solve the problem of Sderot. The only solution is a complete and mutual ceasefire, an end to all armed attacks by the Israeli occupation on Palestinians, including all shootings by infantry, tanks, artillery, aircraft and gunboats, and all targeted killings, armed incursions and arrests across the border, and an end to launching of rockets by Palestinians on Israelis. In addition, this should involve a reopening of the prisoners issue, starting with negotiations on the exchange of Israeli soldier Gilead Shalit with Palestinian prisoners.

We regard such a ceasefire as an entirely realistic, achievable and desirable act, which would save lives, alleviate misery and create better conditions for any attempt to achieve peace between the two peoples - while understanding that no long-lasting solution is possible while the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem continue to live under occupation.



[The following appears as ad in Haaretz, today Feb. 29, 2008]

64% of the Israeli public already agree:

We must talk with Hamas about a

Cease Fire!

No Qassams! No targeted assassinations! No mortar shells! No incursions! No blockade!



GUSH SHALOM

chambers92

Poll: Most Israelis back direct talks with Hamas on Shalit - Haaretz - Israel News
Last update - 07:29 27/02/2008


Poll: Most Israelis back direct talks with Hamas on Shalit

By Yossi Verter, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Gilad Shalit, Likud, Hamas

Sixty-four percent of Israelis say the government must hold direct talks with the Hamas government in Gaza toward a cease-fire and the release of captive soldier Gilad Shalit. Less than one-third (28 percent) still opposes such talks.

The figures were obtained in a Haaretz-Dialog poll conducted Tuesday under the supervision of Professor Camil Fuchs of Tel Aviv University.

According to the findings, Israelis are fed up with seven years of Qassam rockets falling on Sderot and the communities near Gaza, as well as the fact that Shalit has been held captive for more than a year and a half.
Advertisement

An increasing number of public figures, including senior officers in the Israel Defense Forces' reserves, have expressed similar positions on talks with Hamas.

It now appears that this opinion is gaining traction in the wider public, which until recently vehemently rejected such negotiations.

The survey also showed that Likud voters are much more moderate than their Knesset representatives. About half (48 percent) support talks with Hamas.

In Kadima, 55 percent are for talks, while among Labor voters, the number jumps to 72 percent.

With regard to Tuesday's High Court ruling rejecting petitions against ex-president Moshe Katsav's plea bargain, about half of those polled said the decision was not justified.

Supreme Court President Dorit Beinisch, who was part of a minority position against the plea bargain, can thus take some comfort that many people are with her. About one-third of those polled supported the majority opinion in favor of the plea bargain.

On the suspended sentence and fine Katsav is likely to receive, about half of those asked (47 percent) said the sentence was not harsh enough, as opposed to 29 percent who said the punishment was "fitting," and 8 percent who said it was "too harsh."

hotair

First The Heretic posts:
Then you reply with this:
To which I replied by pointing out the rather obvious problem of trying to form decisions based on bad data.

Now you post:
Sighting a newspaper poll:
“
Poll: Most Israelis back direct talks with Hamas on Shalit

By Yossi Verter, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Gilad Shalit, Likud, Hamas

Sixty-four percent of Israelis say the government must hold direct talks with the Hamas government in Gaza toward a cease-fire and the release of captive soldier Gilad Shalit. Less than one-third (28 percent) still opposes such talks.
“
I must ask you to forgive my confusion here. It is not that I do not sympathize with Shalit, or his family. This poll of yours is concerned with a prisoner exchange. Which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

The Israeli government does not negotiate with terrorists, or kidnappers. Since it only encourages them to commit even more crimes. So this newspaper conducts a poll to see if their readers agree with the governments position. Which is fine . . . But what does any of this have to do with your claim: “64% of it's citizens favor talks with Hamas and want peace.” Peace . . . As in the end of the war; and a prisoner exchange. Are two separate things. All I see here are apples, and oranges. For that matter . . . I am unable to find anything in your article about ‘peace’!

On the other hand. Hamas has already broken off three indirect talks for Shalit’s release. Hamas demands that the Israeli government is to release over a thousand criminals from prison, in exchange for one Israeli soldier. The Israeli government cannot submit to these demands. Hamas has repeatedly refused any, and all indirect negotiations in this matter. (Keeping in mind the difference between negotiations, and making demands!)

Direct negotiations are out of the question. As long as Hamas continues to renounce the existence of Israel, the Israeli government cannot openly endorse Hamas as a legitimate government. For the Israeli government to openly accept Hamas as an equal, would violate every law on the books about dealings with a “Terrorist State”!!! Hamas is a terrorist organization, that encourages (demands) the use of open terrorism against civilian targets, in a blatant (and illegal) attempt to overthrow a legitimate government.

Not to mention the fact that if Israel should recognize Hamas as the legitimate government, instead of the PA? It would completely undermine Abbas, The Fatah party, the “Palestinian Authority” as the internationally recognized governing authority for the so called ‘Palestinian People”! Not to mention that it would precipitate another civil war between the ‘Palestinians”. Either that or start a run, with everyone and their mother demanding to be recognized as legitimate governments. Turning the “Two State” solution into the “Two Hundred State” solution!



What talks am I talking about? THE TALKS. Bush’s “Road Map to Peace” talks. I am sure that you must have heard about them. Especially since I posted (post #13 of this thread) an AP story about them. The ones that Hamas is trying to stop with their rocket, and mortar barrages on Israeli civilians.

Hamas wants to stop the talks, mostly because the talks affirm Abbas, and the PA as the legitimate government. While Hamas wants the world to recognize them instead. So nothing (short of brut force) is going to stop the attacks, until the rest of the world recognizes Hamas instead of the PA.

As for the question about Hamas ever recognizing Israel. The whole purpose of Hamas is to destroy Israel. They cannot recognize Israel, without admitting that they are nothing more than the terrorists that they are. In other words: By recognizing Israel, Hamas would be admitting that their war against Israelis is wrong.

You really need to learn to believe these people when they talk. These people are serious. THIS IS NOT A JOKE TO THESE PEOPLE!!! Why do you refuse to believe them??? The war between Hamas, and Israel is to the death. Israel is not going anywhere, even if the Israeli people had somewhere to go. So unless Hamas changes, the killing is not going to stop, until there is no one left to kill. A “cease fire” does nothing other than to prolong the war.

Nothing is going to stop the killing, as long as both Hamas, and Israel exist!!!

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So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!

chambers92

First, I am no fan of Hamas and I do take them seriously but like with Israel, they're here to stay and like it or not they were elected. I was simply trying to point out to you that so far nothing the Israelis have done has worked. Occupation, illegal settlements, raids , collective punishment, sanctions, violence, none of that has made Israel any safer. It also hasn't helped bring them any closer to peace.

So besides the talks with Abbas, they also need to find a peaceful way deal with Hamas. Because if they don't what's the alternative? More killing of Palestinians and more rockets into Israel? And then perhaps something even worse?

Keep in mind there was a time when no one would have believed Israel would sign a peace treaty with Egypt or Jordan.

hotair

No shirt Shitlock!!! Why do you think I choose that particular time frame in the first place???

One of the problems of polls

Back in late 1972 (or maybe it was early 1973), as an experiment (as I recall it was Stanford University that conducted the experiment), a poll was taken in order to demonstrate the value of polls. This experiment consisted of a poll with one single question:

Which of the two choices do you feel would be more beneficial to you personally, in dealing with the current levels of inflation within the economy today?
A.) The government should order a seventy-five percent roll-back of all of your income.
B.) The military should launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack against Moscow.

At first, only the results of this poll were published, without actually publishing the poll question itself, or any of the polling data.

The published results of the poll concluded that: One hundred percent of the Americans polled, wanted the US to start a global nuclear war with the Soviet Union!!!

You can imagine the uproar, and panic, that this caused when the results were first made public. After a week or so, the entire experiment was published. This disclosure included the poll question, as well as all of the actual polling data.

How is any of this is relevant? By your argument, the US government choose to ignore the will of the American people, when it was decided to not start a nuclear war with the Soviets. The poll did after all, establish that one hundred percent of the people polled wanted a nuclear war with the Soviets. One hundred percent is a rather compelling majority.

As though any government is going to destroy all life on the planet, based on the published analysis of the results of one single poll.

Your poll is, as I have said before, completely meaningless.

First: There exists a difference between what a government can do, and cannot do. Just because a government cannot do something, does not mean that it will not do it. The word ‘will’ here, implies that a choice is possible. Thus there is a difference between what a government cannot do, and what any government will not do!

Second: In fact, all single polls are meaningless. The only real value of any poll, is to study trends in public opinion. In order to do this, the same poll must be given repeatedly, over a length of time, at regular intervals. Say on the order of once a week, for two, or three decades, for example. The more times that the poll is given the more useful the data will be.

Polls are like a movie. You have to watch the entire movie to find out what the story is about. If you cut out only one single frame from the movie, no matter how long you study that single frame, you are never going to learn what the movie is about. (Unless of course you have already seen the entire movie before, and you recognize the single frame that has been cut out.)

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So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!

hotair

U.S. decides it's better to talk than fight in Gaza
Bush administration backs Egyptian diplomacy in Israeli-Palestinian conflict

updated 8:11 p.m. CT, Thurs., March. 6, 2008
BRUSSELS, Belgium - To defuse the threat from Gaza militants to Israel and President Bush's Mideast peace program, the U.S. has decided that the ends justify the means.

Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, is considered a terrorist group by Washington. U.S. law forbids official contacts. Nonetheless, the Bush administration is giving quiet support for Egypt's attempt to broker a deal with Hamas for a truce in Gaza.

Under this approach, which U.S. officials and Mideast diplomats confirmed, Hamas would halt rocket attacks from Gaza. Israel would agree not to launch the kind of military incursions that nearly wrecked the U.S.-sponsored peace talks last weekend and would ease its blockade of Gaza.

"It's better to have a stable situation right now than to have Hamas doing what Hamas was doing, which was pulling the thread," a senior U.S. official said Thursday.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity to describe a sensitive policy shift that gained momentum when Mahmoud Abbas, the U.S.-backed Palestinian president, canceled peace talks to protest the deaths of more than 120 Palestinians in the Israeli assault.

Any progress is tenuous, as seen Thursday with the fatal shootings by a Palestinian gunman at a library of a rabbinical seminary in Jerusalem. It was the first major militant attack in the city in more than four years.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility. But Hamas militants in Gaza praised the shooting and thousands of Palestinians took to the streets of Gaza to celebrate.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, after NATO meetings in Brussels, was asked about Egyptian-brokered truce talks. "I talked with the Egyptians and we fully expect the Egyptians to carry out the efforts that they said they would carry out to try to bring calm to the region, to try to improve the situation in Gaza," she said.

She said Egypt was a firm ally in Bush's peace push, begun last fall in Annapolis, Md. "I trust what the Egyptians are doing is exactly in that course," Rice said. "It is extremely important that the negotiations continue" and calm is restored.

U.S. weighs in on Hamas
Representatives from Hamas and Islamic Jihad traveled from Gaza to the northern Egyptian city of el-Arish on Thursday to confer with Egyptian intelligence officials about a possible truce. David Welch, the U.S. Mideast envoy, also was in Egypt on Thursday to meet with the foreign minister and intelligence chief about the mediation.

The U.S. dislikes the terms truce or cease-fire because they lend political legitimacy to Hamas. Rice talks in public only about the need for calm. But during stops in Israel and the West Bank this week, she did acknowledge Hamas' influence, saying the group has the power to halt rocket attacks and is trying to stop the peace process.

Hamas has military and political wings and officially pledges Israel's destruction.

The militants won Palestinian elections two years ago, opening a rift with the moderate-led leadership on whom Bush and Israel have pinned hopes for a peace outline this year. Hamas staged a bloody takeover of Gaza last June. Since then, Abbas has had no direct authority over nearly half his people and rocket attacks have increased.

Someone has to negotiate with Hamas
U.S. support for a truce acknowledges the obvious: Hamas is not going away and ignoring or insulting the militants has not worked. The militants are an insurmountable obstacle so long as they can hold peace progress hostage, to use the loaded term Rice chose on Wednesday when she announced that Abbas would return to talks.

The U.S. had resisted Arab proposals for accommodation with Hamas in the past, insisting it does not pay to talk to terrorists. Israel also fears that radicals would use the lull of a cease-fire to rearm.

"Recent events graphically demonstrated to the United States Hamas' ability to sabotage the negotiating process," an Arab diplomat in Washington said. "This has lead them to the conclusion that there has to be some sort of cease-fire, which in turn means someone has to negotiate this with Hamas. That someone is Egypt."

Egypt, a key U.S. ally and the first Arab state to make peace with Israel, has tried for months to persuade the U.S. it could work out a deal that benefits everyone, without benefiting Hamas too much. The secular Egyptian government of President Hosni Mubarak has no love lost for the Islamic militants. Egypt was embarrassed when Hamas blasted down portions of Egypt's small border with Gaza in January, allowing thousands of cooped-up Palestinians to flow into Egypt temporarily.

"The administration seems to want to proceed with this in a way that does not implicate them in direct talks with Hamas, or in a way that lends U.S. recognition to Hamas' takeover of Gaza," said the diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity to summarize internal government discussions. "This is why they seem to be keeping their distance." More from msnbc.com


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

While the article goes to great lengths to state the position of the US. Israel is forced to take the very same positions, as the US, for the very same reasons.

The problem here is not Israel. The problem is Hamas. Everyone keeps pointing the finger at Israel, for everything that Hamas is doing. Israel, is not ‘collectively’ punishing the Gazans, it is Hamas that is doing these things to the Gazans. Blaming the Israelis for the actions, and choices of Hamas, would be the same as putting you in prison for a crime that I have committed.

All of this would end, if Hamas would just:
1.) Give up it’s attempts to destroy Israel, and except Israel’s right to exist.
2.) Negotiate a reunification with the PA. (Abbas)
3.) Denounce terrorism.
4.) Assist the PA in cleaning out all of the other terrorist groups, now running rampant within Gaza.
5.) Work with the PA (Abbas) to establish a sovereign “Palestinian” state

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So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!