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Old 03-07-2008, 01:07 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chambers92 View Post
First, I am no fan of Hamas and I do take them seriously but like with Israel, they're here to stay and like it or not they were elected. I was simply trying to point out to you that so far nothing the Israelis have done has worked. Occupation, illegal settlements, raids , collective punishment, sanctions, violence, none of that has made Israel any safer. It also hasn't helped bring them any closer to peace.

So besides the talks with Abbas, they also need to find a peaceful way deal with Hamas. Because if they don't what's the alternative? More killing of Palestinians and more rockets into Israel? And then perhaps something even worse?
"You cannot fix anything, until you know what is broken! You will never know what is broken until you understand how it is suppose to work! Otherwise all you will ever accomplish, will be to break what is working right.”

What the Israelis are doing, is working. Abbas (The PA) are holding serious talks with Israel for the first time in their short history together. Hamas is slowly be pushed out, which is why they are becoming more, and more desperate. Unfortunately things are going to get worse before they get better. Especially if people keep interfering with Israel.

What is not working, is broken because people keep trying to blame Israel for the things that Hamas (and the other terrorist groups) are doing. The fact that Hamas is willing to murder a million and a half of their own people should give you another clue here. The fact that many of these people (seem) to be willing to die (even now that they have everything they claim to want) for Hamas, should give you another clue.

It is said that ignorance is bliss. I wonder if the people of Gaza would agree, if they were not so ignorant?

Apparently my posts about GIGO have been too complicated. So I will try to keep this post as simple as I can.

The killing is not going to stop, until there is nobody left to kill. (Is this simple enough???)

The Arab’s position: The only problem is, that Israel exists. The members of all of these various Arab groups (Hezbollah, Hamas, The PLO, along with every other group) have all sworn an oath to their God to annihilate Israel or die trying. To these people, there is nothing more sacred than an oath to their God. The single worse sin that a Muslim can commit: Is to break an oath made to their God!!! Their belief is that there is a very special place in Hell for Oathbreakers!!!

The killing is not going to stop, until there is nobody left to kill.

Their claims are: 1.) Israel is not a sovereign nation. 2) The Israeli government therefore is not a legal government. One cannot negotiate with an illegal government! The very act of agreeing to negotiate, legitimizes the very government that they claim is illegal. Not to mention the fact that there is no point in negotiating with someone about their annihilation. Since (unless they are extremely stupid) they are never going to agree to it!!!

Lebanon: Hezbollah has a very cushy arraignment in Lebanon. They can conduct their terrorist activities against Israeli civilians, with the support of the Lebanese government. Whenever the Israelis try to fight back, the Lebanese government just runs to the UN to demand more UN Peacekeepers to protect the Hezbollah terrorists from the Israeli military.

The Jordanians in the West Bank (PLO), and the Egyptians in Gaza (Hamas) (Along with the dozen (or more) other splinter groups operating in the regions.) all want the same cushy arrangement that Hezbollah has in Lebanon. Their very own UN protected sanctuaries to conduct their operations against Israeli civilians from.

Bush does not want to end up in the history books as the worse President in US history. He wants his own Nobel Peace Prize, just like the one that Gore has. The thinking within the Cheney White House is: If the US can force Israel into any kind of a treaty with Abbas, Bush will get his Nobel Peace Prize.

The Israelis: Just want to be left alone, to live their lives in peace, like ordinary human beings.

For the Israelis one Lebanon is bad enough, two more Lebanons would make trying to defend their country almost impossible. (Which is the Arabs whole point in wanting two more Lebanons in the first place. To once again surround Israel with enemies that will stop at nothing to destroy Israel.)

Thus: Any agreement with Abbas would be pointless. Abbas is only one person, who by his own admission has no authority to enforce any agreement that he might sign.

No Israeli PM is going to negotiate a treaty with anyone, that the Israeli Parliament cannot ratify. The Israeli Parliament cannot (by law) ratify any treaty, with anyone, that does not implicitly recognize the sovereignty of the State of Israel (to include full recognition of the boarders that define their country)! No Arab leader, in his right mind (since Sadat) is ever going to repeat Sadat’s mistake of agreeing to anything that does recognize Israel.

The geniuses in the Cheney White House think that they can bypass Hamas (in Gaza), and by simply ignoring them, can force some kind of an agreement between Israel and Abbas. Hamas does not recognize Abbas as representing them. So Hamas is shelling Israel, to force the talks to stop. So . . . For as long as the US keeps trying to force an agreement, Hamas is going to continue their shelling of Israel to stop it.

The killing is not going to stop, until there is nobody left to kill.

Abbas cannot ignore Israeli attempts to stop the Hamas shelling, and the Israeli people will not allow their government to continue to simply ignore the shelling, just to make Bush happy. Not only is Hamas not going to be ignored, they want full formal international recognition of them as the only legitimate government of the PA. As well as full international recognition of their claims against Israel. (Their claims are: 1.) Israel is not a sovereign nation. 2) The Israeli government therefore is not a legal government.)

At present Hamas and Abbas are locked in a civil war, over who is the legitimate government. The Israeli government would only make matters worse, by opening direct negotiations with Hamas. That would only undermine what little legitimacy that Abbas actually has. So your poll is completely meaningless. Even if every single person in Israel would want to stick their dicks in the middle of this “Palestinian” civil war, the Israeli government cannot (and in all probability will not) defy the US, the EU, the UN, and the rest of the international community by recognizing Hamas’ claims over Abbas.

The killing is not going to stop, until there is nobody left to kill.

The only other option: Would be for everyone living in Israel now, to back up all of their belongings, and move to Nebraska.

Now . . . Is this still too complicated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chambers92 View Post
Keep in mind there was a time when no one would have believed Israel would sign a peace treaty with Egypt or Jordan.
In point of fact . . . There has never been a time that you describe. Since Israel was first established, all that the Israeli people have ever wanted was to be allowed to live their lives in peace, just like everyone else. True they were never happy about the occupation of their lands by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan (1948-1967), but they lived with it. They were told that it was the price of peace.

They were forced to fight numerous wars to protect their country. And always they were more than willing to end those wars. It has never been the position of Israel to destroy their Arab neighbors.

So you see. You have worded your statement backwards. There has never been any question that the Israeli people would settle for the only thing that they have ever wanted. The miracle is that the Jordanians, and the Egyptians have finally signed treaties with Israel.

This alone should be your first clue.

The Israelis just want peace, but not at the expense of being annihilated.

There is a difference between peace, and eternal peace.
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Old 03-14-2008, 03:51 AM   #32 (permalink)
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The central problem here, is that (in violation of the Oslo Accords) the Israeli Arabs still have not created a governing body. A government is far more than fancy job titles, and obscure job descriptions.

Gaza is no longer Israel’s problem. The Israelis have washed their hands of the entire place. Gaza is now the PA’s problem! (As per the Oslo Accords.)

There are two different wars going on here. First: There is the “holy war” of Hamas to annihilate Israel. Second: There is the ‘civil war’ between Hamas, and the PA. The blockade of Gaza, has nothing to do with Hamas’ war against Israel. It is only about the PA’s need to put down the rebellion in Gaza. Abbas does not have an army loyal to the PA. It is very doubtful that Abbas could raise an army loyal to the PA. Even if Abbas were to raise such an army, the only way that he could get this army to Gaza, would be to invade Israel.

Something that the Israelis would most likely not approve of.

The only Islamic government in the region that is willing to help Abbas with his problem in Gaza is Egypt. No real wonder there, since Egypt does not want the Gazans back. Thus Abbas, and the international community have managed to make Gaza, Israel’s problem once again. Abbas is simply forcing Israel to do his dirty work for him. This is good for him, because he can continue to believe that his hands are clean. This is bad for Israel, because people keep wanting to blame Israel for Abbas’ problems in Gaza.



Thus is the nature of “Civil War”!!!
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