chambers92

I don't know what they should do about Gaza/ Hamas except that for now the PA shouldn't be expected to police Gaza. But I agree with you, a three state solution isn't going to happen nor should it. The PA probably doesn't know what they're doing which is why Jordan and perhaps Egypt can help train their police.

The_Heretic

It's stunningly clear. Israel's government has to stop the mass punishement, pull up all "settlements" from Palestine, discontinue human rights abuses, stop freezing up the assets of the Palestinian government and there must be an unbiased arbitor between the two countries [the U.S. clearly isn't].

After that the support for terror groups will dry up within months. The reason none of what I say will happen is because the hardliners in Israel want the rest of Palestine and portions of surrounding countries.

Wrong on both counts.

The Palestinians simply CANNOT do it. It's beyond their resources and abilities. The Israeli government ensures that the Palestinians can't by depriving the Palestinian govenment of their own finances.

The Israeli hardliners can't be trusted to do it because they'd go right back to mass punishment, indescriminate killing of noncoms and steal more land against the wishes of the Israeli public.

The Israelis have to back off and take their boot off the Palestinian's necks. The more they stomp on the rights of ordinary nonviolent Palestinians the more terrorism they'll bring down on themselves.

And the U.S. must be BARRED from involvement between the two government. Our government has clearly proven they can't be trusted to play a fair moderator between Israel and Palestine. What's more there MUST be a complete freeze of weapon sales to Israel [as well as Palestine, though they get so few they wouldn't notice]. No weapons, no munitions, no replacement parts for their military vehicles or aircraft. None! To do anything less is to sign onto further human rights abuses and war crimes.

They CAN'T. Aren't you paying attention? They don't have the ability. How many times must it be posted? They're out-gunned, out-trained and lack the moral. The deck is completely stacked against them.

And most of the surrounding countries can't be trusted to do the job right either. No, this requires a pull-back by ALL sides without exception.

No, it's more the same. It gives the terror groups what they want. And it gives Israel's government hardliners still more excuses to kill, destroy and oppress.

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"They're all cattle just markin' time in the slaughterhouse line." -The Heretic, Quill-Fu Theater: Enter The Needle

chambers92

I agree, Israel needs to stop all the above and to start to dismantling settlements. I've said that many times in other threads. Lets say it happens, the process of relocating settlers, most of whom will be angry, might take months. What do you suggest in the meantime? If Isreal decides to pull out of the West Bank and end the occupation who do you think should be in control? Are you saying Israel should end the occupation first and then hand over control to the PA?

Also, while most Israelis citizens want peace and will do just about anything to achieve it right now there are still some who fear withdrawl from the West Bank. They feel the West Bank will end up like Gaza, they see how Israel withdrew from Gaza and all they got back are rockets flying into Israel on a daily basis. Yes, I know that the sanctions and the punishment for electing Hamas contributed to the unrest but... tell that to some ordinary Israel citzens who don't have any say in the matter and who are trying to live their lives with out getting harmed by rockets and other attacks.



A weapons freeze on Israel makes sense to me but..... just know that Hamas will continue to receive weapons from Iran. So unless someone starts trying to hold talks with Hamas/Gaza nothing's going to change with that situation. I'm also fine with the US not being involved in the peace process unless we can be more of an honest broker. But again, who do you think should take over that role. It sound like you don't trust other Arab countries, so what would you suggest?


Yes, Heretic, I'm paying attention I'm sure you'll agree that the situtation is very complicated and there's no easy answers. Anyhow, I'm just trying to look at it from all angles.

The_Heretic

They need to demonstrate a comment to that removal and berid of the hardliners in their government.

The thing to be aware of is that most Palestinians [including the nonviolent majority] will scorn any foreign presence. The reason is long experience of having seen all foriegn occupiers abuse the position without fail. So it's not about who we have in place of Israel- though the leftover option are the Palestinians themselves, but will they be given the leeway of not succeeding right away.

This is all about asking the right questions more than it is over what the answers are.

And they should bite the bullet of watching Palestinians parade around as if the I?DF were kicked out. It might be humiliating to the isreli government, but so long as they won't go back in it'll be a nonlethal form of humiliation [a profound improvement].

Not that many, and most of them are squatters in the West Bank. As it stands they should just shut the fuck up and suck it up. The majority have spoken and they want out regardless.

Because that "withdraw" was a half measure, that the agreement was already in the process of being reversed by the addition of settlements elsewhere and no Israeli commitment to continue withdrawing from Palestine.

It's all been a shell game and the Palestinians knew it from the first instant. That's why the violent response.

I say to them that they need to use their votes to berid of the hardliners in their government. I don't see how Israeli safety should be used to override the safety of Palestinians. That approach has never worked and will never work.

The only TRUE safety an Israeli can get is by extending to Palestinians their safety. Any attempt at a seecurity double standard will deservedly fail. When Palestinians have no expectation of safety the extremists among will make sure they don't suffer alone.

What I mean by a weapons freeze has nothing to do with that. I mean that Israel should get no new weapons. They can use their existing arsenal within their borders to defend themselves, but they would not be allowed to enter populated areas of Palestinian while armed. And believe it or not there are means to shoot down Katusha rockets without being in the area of where they're launched.

But terror groups are only half the problem. So long as the Israeli government gets to eat the cake and still have it too [as well as the Palestinian cake] then no thing will be resolved anyway. The double standard that the Israeli government insists on is just as responsible for the deaths of Israelis as the terror groups themselves. That's a tough thing to point out and unpopular, but it's also true. We've been treating Israel's government with kid gloves for so long that they've become spoiled and throw temper tantrums everytime they don't get everything they demand a 100%.

It's time they know the foreign aid gravy train is over and they need to learn how to stand on their own feet for once. That'll force their government to learn how to play nice with the other children.

Our government will never be an honest broker. So no exception should exist to bar U.S. involvement.

It'll make you laugh, but Switzerland. They or a similar country who really has no invested stake on either side.

But it's the old angles of view that have invariably been counter productive- intentionally so in many cases.

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"They're all cattle just markin' time in the slaughterhouse line." -The Heretic, Quill-Fu Theater: Enter The Needle

hotair

As things stand right now, Gaza is exactly where the PA should be. If Gaza is to be part of a Palestinian state, then the PA’s first priority should be reclaiming Gaza. Ending this civil war between Hamas, and the PA needs to be the single highest priority. Or everything else will be for naught. Some one (other than Hamas (or any other terrorist group)) has to be in charge.

Which brings all of this around to the beginning again. A separate Arab state within Israel, was all but a done deal, before Arafat was allowed to return from exile. All that was needed, was for the Arabs to establish some form of governing. In this day, and age, a people (any people) has to have someone to represent them. The international community is not going to spend time trying deal with each individual person, individually. Keeping track of all the current treaties is hard enough, without requiring nations to have to deal with millions of individual people separately.

Of course the PA cannot do it alone, which is why Jordan, and Israel have offered to help them. Jordan has offered troops, and logistic support. While the Israelis have offered heavy weapons, and air support.

But here is where the problems begin. The PA is unwilling to ask for help. They fear that by accepting help, or even asking for it, that they are admitting that they are too weak to do it themselves. Weakness is considered a bad thing, in many cultures.

The fact that they are too weak is yet another problem here.

Additionally, the PA does not want the responsibility. Clearing Hamas out of Gaza, is going to be a very bloody business, and the PA does not want to get its hands dirty. They want someone else (Israel) to be the bad guys here.

In all of human history, no nation has ever been created (born) without a considerable amount of bloodshed. The PA wants their “Palestine” to be the first. Which is to say, that the PA does not want the blood to be on their hands. Hamas knows this, and they are taking advantage of it.

All of which only compounds the problems of trying to create a separate state within another state. (It has never been done (successfully) before for a number of very good reasons.) As illustrated by the current situation within Gaza now. The uninformed only see Israel blockading Gaza. That is only because Gaza is located within Israel. It is not (just) Israel that is involved here. It is the entire international community that has denounced Hamas. Israel (and Egypt) have both been given the job of operating the blockade (for the entire international community) because no one else can do it. At least not without invading either Israel, or Egypt.

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So long, and thanks for all of the fish!!!