Hate laws a reasonable limit on free speech - Page 7

ImusWallower · 06-26-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eagleclaw

Try this:

Five Dancing Israelis - What Really Happened Wiki - a Wikia wiki

And click on the NY Times link and see what happens.

No surpise there!!!! Censorship.

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RK77 · 06-26-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rigged

I have read "America Alone.." and i wasn't crazy about it. There are better books out there but not many.

Islam is not going to take over the world, nor will western culture "disappear" we are just heading into a decline period. Usually when a culture goes into decline it is a period which it will revitalize itself into something new. So maybe once we were Romans but now we will be Italians. I don't know. I do know that global leadership in innovation will never leave the west. We may not make everything but we think it all up.

Not hardly. If you look at the history of science we are sort of like that commercial "we don't make it.....we make it better"!

We seem to be adept at taking a small idea and exploding it into something world changing!

Oh----and geting P-A-I-D PAID for it bigtime!

RK77 · 06-26-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eagleclaw

You need to find out why this has happened. Do you believe they just woke up one day and said "I hate Western society"?

What caused this? What is the root?

It sort of surprises me that we are really this tone deaf to the rest of the world.

The 9/11 nuts were NOT from impoverished families with no future and no hope.

They don't hate us for our freedom or or wealth.

They don't hate us for our beautiful country, our education or anything else.

They hate us for our arrogance, our racism, our exploitation of their resources, our itching desire that far exceeds Hitler's to rule the world and pass judgment on every cultural and religious aspect of it!

We have for nearly a 5 decades run nothing short of a modern day crusade around the world.

We have a president who has left no leader, nation, or culture undenigrated.

We have allowed products to be shipped out of our nation that cannot be sold inside our borders due to the dangers of the product.

We have set up "foreign aid" deals that have cause starvation and drought and death from thrist from one end of the globe to the next.

They have reason to fail to be enamoured with us---and until we own up to that they can't do anything other than hate us----no sane person could!

RK77 · 06-26-2008, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michelemichele

Thanks (very much) for the pdf, it was excellent.

...But I don't agree with your conclusion here. I think of Holocaust denial as libel: these deniers are insinuating that the people who lost families & friends to concentration camps are lying about it. It's a Jew, after all, it's in their character. Libel should be punishable by law. I mean, if someone calls me a bitch, so what: if I react to that, it's my problem. But if I'd been personally harassed, excluded from jobs and/or advancement by rights I should have earned, had a history of this in my family, had a long extended history of it along with violence against people of my religion, ethnicity and country: it builds up, especially when human nature will always kick around society's most vulnerable.

The Internet at least provides a platform where there can be some dialogue when it becomes apparent people are buying into BS*, but what of the in-the-flesh VKMs who publish material claiming that the Red Cross, say, reported there were no extermination camps, deaths were from disease and (if I remember correctly) 'just a couple of hundred thousand'.

Do you think the publisher of such material should be hit with charges rather than the individual?

It's true that civil and/or criminal prosecution &/or (if all goes well) monetary compensation/conviction doesn't compensate victims emotionally, but on the other hand, it does help the person(s) feel someone is on their side (and on a practical level: they may need that $ to defray medical expenses, and wage losses. How long communal support lasts: I don't know, there's so many varying degrees and extenuating circumstances, I can't generalize. I suspect it lasts only as long as the headlines, but maybe I'm being cynical. I know that the people from Maher's old board who participated in threads about Canadian issues haven't forgotten them.

There's a lot more I could get into, because there are some downsides I've noticed myself (Ontario's Sharia case; Indian protests at Caledonia are two that stand out), but I don't want to wander all the hell over the place in this post. I'd be glad to find links & fill you in, though the best source is gone (word to the wise: always save good threads to text files).

Canada doesn't mete out such sentences on a continual basis: Zundel's case was extreme after he'd racked up a hell of a record.

I think I understand where you are coming from and as an African American --- it could EASILY be my kneejerk reaction to agree with you.

The problem is --- I am an American first. And one question that cannot be answered when you go to the extreme of codifiying censorship of hateful speech is "How do you then protect dissent?"

To return to your example of the holocaust--- your assertions are something I personal find sympathetic to my own beliefs BUT have you considered that one reason that the Germans could be corralled into allowing the genocide to occur under their noses was the inability of ANY dissenting views to be heard. THOSE views could have easily been labeled as "hateful speech" toward the Aryans.

This would have been especially true as they began to mass murder women and children. Calling someone a mass murderer is a pretty "hateful" term when it is not true, is it not?

How would say a school teacher in Warsaw have PROVEN anything about what was occuring in the camps? Still--- would it not have been that teachers duty as a human being to attempt to dissent from a view that condoned such behavior?

Those of us who love American and believe in our constitution understand your argument---because in America there is no group --- NOT ONE --- that is free from the insults and painful mislabeling and abusive unto the point of threatening/frightening speech. But we also spring forth from ancestors who --- be they americans from the time of the revolution or from the time of the potatoe famines or from the times of the slave trades --- all would have DIED (and many did) to protect the rights of not only those who saw them in a favorable light---but also those who spewed hate speech at them and their families.

One of the things I LEAST respect about the fanatically pro- israeli jewish people is their determination to, in this nation, squelch the right of people to be stupid as shit and say offensive shit at will.

NOW--- that being said, the right to say want you want is accompanied by the right of those around you to--- in a variety of ways----hold you accountable for what you say. Our legal system codifies that right as well.

The ONLY punishment of "Hate" that I can concur with is when that emotion/ideology is translated into an action---be it discriminatory practices or attempts to terrorize or attempts to harm. Those who hate can and should be made to live with their hate (choke on it as it were) or pay consequences for acting on it, imho.

In a very real way, it is this freedom, above all others, that makes America---America! Those who need for their neighbors rights to be curtailed to enjoy their own would likely find themselves more comfortable in many of the other democracies throughout the world. Ours comes with freedom of speech!

eagleclaw · 06-26-2008, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RK77

One of the things I LEAST respect about the fanatically pro- israeli jewish people is their determination to, in this nation, squelch the right of people to be stupid as shit and say offensive shit at will.

!

Now this is wrong, you are implying that if anybody understands what their lying eyes are telling them that they are "stupid as shit"?

"you can't hide your lying eyes, you've been on the cheating side of town"

eagleclaw · 06-26-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RK77

One of the things I LEAST respect about the fanatically pro- israeli jewish people is their determination to, in this nation, squelch the right of people to be stupid as shit and say offensive shit at will.

!

Now this is wrong, you are implying that if anybody understands what their own lying eyes are telling them that they are "stupid as shit"?

"you can't hide your lying eyes, you've been on the cheating side of town"

VKMHVM2 · 06-26-2008, 09:41 PM

FOXNews.com - One Arrested, Others Detained at NY Airports - U.S. & World

The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards.

michelemichele · 06-28-2008, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RK77

I think I understand where you are coming from and as an African American --- it could EASILY be my kneejerk reaction to agree with you.

The problem is --- I am an American first. And one question that cannot be answered when you go to the extreme of codifiying censorship of hateful speech is "How do you then protect dissent?"

To return to your example of the holocaust--- your assertions are something I personal find sympathetic to my own beliefs BUT have you considered that one reason that the Germans could be corralled into allowing the genocide to occur under their noses was the inability of ANY dissenting views to be heard. THOSE views could have easily been labeled as "hateful speech" toward the Aryans.

This would have been especially true as they began to mass murder women and children. Calling someone a mass murderer is a pretty "hateful" term when it is not true, is it not?

How would say a school teacher in Warsaw have PROVEN anything about what was occuring in the camps? Still--- would it not have been that teachers duty as a human being to attempt to dissent from a view that condoned such behavior?

Those of us who love American and believe in our constitution understand your argument---because in America there is no group --- NOT ONE --- that is free from the insults and painful mislabeling and abusive unto the point of threatening/frightening speech. But we also spring forth from ancestors who --- be they americans from the time of the revolution or from the time of the potatoe famines or from the times of the slave trades --- all would have DIED (and many did) to protect the rights of not only those who saw them in a favorable light---but also those who spewed hate speech at them and their families.

One of the things I LEAST respect about the fanatically pro- israeli jewish people is their determination to, in this nation, squelch the right of people to be stupid as shit and say offensive shit at will.

NOW--- that being said, the right to say want you want is accompanied by the right of those around you to--- in a variety of ways----hold you accountable for what you say. Our legal system codifies that right as well.

The ONLY punishment of "Hate" that I can concur with is when that emotion/ideology is translated into an action---be it discriminatory practices or attempts to terrorize or attempts to harm. Those who hate can and should be made to live with their hate (choke on it as it were) or pay consequences for acting on it, imho.

In a very real way, it is this freedom, above all others, that makes America---America! Those who need for their neighbors rights to be curtailed to enjoy their own would likely find themselves more comfortable in many of the other democracies throughout the world. Ours comes with freedom of speech!

Hi RK

don't abandon this thread pls, will be back when I'm feeling better (wah wah, ahym sick wah)
__________________________________________________ _

Eagleclaw & VKM

please take your 9/11 conspiracies to the appropriate section, and if you want to discuss the Jewish Holocaust further, create your own thread. Bye.

BleedingPinky · 06-28-2008, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michelemichele

will be back when I'm feeling better (wah wah, ahym sick wah)

Damnit. You feel better now. I said so. I wanted to type it. Now.

ImusWallower · 06-28-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VKMHVM2

FOXNews.com - One Arrested, Others Detained at NY Airports - U.S. & World

The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards.

i asked to see the NY Times story

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