Gas prices - Page 3

jdanton · 05-03-2008, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldManOnFire

I started thinking about this and actually...there are lots of things that can be done. How about...

Government vehicles:

In every situation where an electric vehicle will work as well as a combustion engine vehicle, start using electric vehicles. This includes the USPS.

All government vehicles that do not fall into the electric category above, should be sub-compacts, or hybrids, that have a minimum 35mpg rating. If USA manufacturers cannot provide these vehicles, then buy imports.

Remove all vehicles from service that are not considered essential. This includes all vehicles which are made available for personal use.

All use of government owned and operated aircraft, as well as government employees using commercial airlines, to be reduced to an absolute minimum.

Government facilities:

My guess is there are tens of thousands of government offices/facilities around the world. Immediately eliminate 25% of these facilities and another 25% over the next ten years.

US Military:

Immediately eliminate 15% of all military facilities around the world and another 15% over the next ten years.

The US military is the single largest consumer of oil products in the USA and the world, consuming approximately 150 million barrels per year, or 6.3 billion gallons per year! No matter the method, reduce this consumption by 15% in the next two years and another 15% in the next five years.

Begin removing 10,000 US troops per month from Iraq and immediately suspend all ground and air attacks.

Free enterprise encouragement:

The US government needs to have a contest like the "X Prize". It will award $1 billion to anyone who designs a passenger car which is equal in specifications to the Toyota Prius but has a maximum retail price of $15,000.

A second X-prize of another $1 billion will go to any person or business who can design a USA manufacturing facility which will guarantee the manufacture of this $15,000 car.

A third X-prize of another $1 billion will be awarded to create higher-efficiency electric car batteries that can be warranted for ten years and cost no more than $1000 per vehicle.

A fourth X-prize of $100 million 'each' will be awarded to all incorporated cities in the USA, with a minimum population of 300,000, who can document, design and implement a 25% reduction in passenger car traffic within a two year period.

Summary:

All of these ideas and in not a single one do I need to regulate an industry, charge windfall profits, or ask people to sacrifice or invest. In fact, once the reductions are made in the government and military, personal taxes can be reduced.

Regarding the government and the military ideas, this is common sense and nothing more than house-cleaning and increasing efficiencies. This is about 20 years past due!

Regarding the X-Prizes...we can have a $15,000 car, USA manufacturing plants, affordable electric cars, and remove 25% of all passenger car traffic from the nations 50 most populated cities, in a competitive spirit, for the measly sum of $8 billion...or about the cost of the US being in Iraq for a single month.

If these items can be achieved, at least in the USA, demand will be less than the supply of oil, and gasoline prices will fall like Paris Hilton's panties after one shot of tequila...

All of these are good ideas. If any of them got started on today, when would they result in lower prices at the pump?

I've advocated for years that the Postal Service and similar use electric vehicles. The letter carrier only drives 20 miles or less a day.

I'd even advocate some kind of program that makes a second car affordable if it's small and efficient. I don't need my wagon for 95% of the driving I do, but I can't afford a second car. If I could, it would be a small hybrid, or, if available, an electric.

I don't see any IMMEDIATE way for the government to lower gas prices, because I don't see how they can set prices, wages, or bonuses.

jdanton · 05-03-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PursuitOfHappinessParty

Could it be that fuels (fossil and alternative) have now become such an integral part of our lives that they've moved from free-market into a social need and thus should be either regulated or literally controlled by the government?

Maybe, but that won't happen overnight, either.

One of the big lies in this campaign is that the government is going to be able to do anything soon to bring prices down.

The good news is that faced with a democratic president the oil companies may lower prices on their own to avoid something like this being pursued.

jdanton · 05-03-2008, 07:34 AM

I had once suggested that all postal employees could transfer to the facility nearest their home, but that wasn't taken very well.

OldManOnFire · 05-03-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PursuitOfHappinessParty

Could it be that fuels (fossil and alternative) have now become such an integral part of our lives that they've moved from free-market into a social need and thus should be either regulated or literally controlled by the government?

Items which are integral to our lives;

Water
Electricity
Food
Health Care
Telecommunications
Clothing

It is true that the need for oil products permeates the entire fabric of our lives today. But we also have an equal need for water, electricity, food, and health care...without any of these our lives are severely disrupted.

It's either a free and open market system based on supply and demand or it's socialism...

OldManOnFire · 05-03-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PursuitOfHappinessParty

Tough beating Wal-Mart.
$93 Average price of a barrel of oil sold by Exxon in the first quarter.
$55 Average price this time last year.

And is it Exxon that only supplies 3% of the oil to the US and/or the world?

Lot's of businesses, and less than desirable countries, are making lots of money...

BillCosby · 05-03-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdanton

How would any type of tax added to the oil companies, or any cutting of subsidies, NOT result in higher prices at the pump:?

Somehow the Roosevelts & Huey P Longs of the world seemed to find ways to get these MF's to cooperate........ Is this some banana republic here???

Again I am being asked to solve the problem........ There are a few assumptions here. One that lower prices is the goal.... The prices here are low compared to most places........ Should that be a goal??? Should we be subsidizing @ all...???

Supply & demand advocates.......... If a tax is raised they could simply raise the cost.......

So.......... The price increase @ some point will be prohibitive & ppl will buy less... Is that a good thing or a bad thing..???

(Manipulating/controlling markets & commodities is hardly foreign here.................)

As I said I would of course prefer some of the things already mentioned.... I am afraid those things are not going to happen.....

Rigged · 05-03-2008, 12:22 PM

I have already posted a lengthy opinion on this in the econ forum, but why not.

1. Common sense solutions

We have a energy problem. The biggest issue is people presenting solutions that do not line up with common sense. For example, using our food supply to power our SUVs. I would not consider this a "common sense" solution. Many universities have been working on ways to render cellulose based fuels which come from the garbage parts of the plant. A two-fold benefit can come from this approach. First, that we waste less, and second, the process is earth-friendly and requires very little processing. Less chemical energy than what it takes to render a barrel of crude oil into gasoline.

Another take on this, which I have mentioned several times, is sugar-based ethanol. There is already a large industry in S. America for this, the downside is importing this product maybe cost prohibitive. However, there is not doubt in my mind that American companies would jump on the bandwagon. This would provide employment to thousands of workers, raise their standard of living, and provide a eco-friendly fuel that can power our SUVs as well as gasoline.

2. Planning

For those of us who live in the East this is less of a problem, but many people who live on the left-coast know that proper planning can make all the difference in the creation of a community. This is a point I have pounded on several times but zoning is EVERYTHING. You zone everything so far away you are breeding more drivers, and more consumption of fuels.

3. Solar Power can work

I know there are non-believers but solar panels on a house can reduce your energy cost. If 100 buildings in say, NYC added solar panels to the top of there buildings there is no doubt in my mind that people's energy bills would go down.

Also it would make people more conscientious of the energy they use by adding some kind of meter on thermostats. Most people don't know they are pulling so much juice. Show em!

OldManOnFire · 05-03-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

QUOTE=BillCosby;173491 Well I like/ would prefer your ideas I am afraid they are even less likely than some form of additional "revenue enhancements"......lol

I have said often that I don't believe anything dramatic will happen on our part (the public) until we are @ around $10 per gallon.... That may not be to far off & is certainly now w/in the realm of possibilities.

I can not honestly see bush or mcbush considering these..... Perhaps under an Obama some of these could come to the table or even a remoter possibility w/ a clinton2.........

JDanton asked the question about what our government can do...if anything...and I hope I communicated appropriately that there's a lot they can do without ever asking individuals to be directly involved. But you are surely correct that none of these ideas will ever be implemented. And IMO it's this type of arrogant do-nothing attitude that will eventually lead most of the USA into the abyss...

OldManOnFire · 05-03-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonesy

We could restructure the way we live and work. Humans are wasteful creatures. You could easily design a complex where people could live and work without using any gas.

Take a shopping mall; add living quarters; make it so everyone who lives there also works there (and no one works there who doesn't live there); ensure the mall has all the basic needs and such (food, clothing, electronics, etc.); incorporate those flat-escalator things you find in airports (to make traveling around the facility ultra-efficient); and use solar-panels to generate the vast majority of electricity for the entire complex (if not all the electricity).

With this particular complex, most travel would require no gas whatsoever. I'm sure the inhabitants would be interested in leaving the facility from time-to-time, but the small amount of fuel it would require to transport them to and from the facility would be minuscule in comparison to the current levels of fuel consumption.

Many years ago...I'm guessing in the 60's, in AZ, there was an artist who had an idea to build a self-contained city and I think it's name was Arcosanti (sp?). His name was something like Palo Solari (sp?). It was his vision of the future in which people lived in these man-made biospheres...where they were born, lived, worked, and died.

I've often contemplated the idea of commune living. This would be a small-scale of Arcosanti and makes lots of practical sense. Of course there are the personal behavioral issues that must be kept in check, but this is going to be required anyway in order for people to find any sort of unity...

OldManOnFire · 05-03-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

QUOTE=jdanton;173719 All of these are good ideas. If any of them got started on today, when would they result in lower prices at the pump?

Some would have immediate effects and others will take the time I mentioned...a few years...but all steps will lower demand the moment the plan started to be implemented...

05-03-2008, 07:34 AM	#23 (permalink)
jdanton Puddy Tat Watch Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 3,806 My Mood: Thanks: 38 Thanked 51 Times in 38 Posts	I had once suggested that all postal employees could transfer to the facility nearest their home, but that wasn't taken very well. __________________ Author: Memoirs of a Sleepless Mind, a book you CAN judge by its cover.
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05-03-2008, 12:22 PM	#27 (permalink)
Rigged We made History Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: The Secret City Posts: 667 My Mood: Thanks: 63 Thanked 90 Times in 59 Posts	I have already posted a lengthy opinion on this in the econ forum, but why not. 1. Common sense solutions We have a energy problem. The biggest issue is people presenting solutions that do not line up with common sense. For example, using our food supply to power our SUVs. I would not consider this a "common sense" solution. Many universities have been working on ways to render cellulose based fuels which come from the garbage parts of the plant. A two-fold benefit can come from this approach. First, that we waste less, and second, the process is earth-friendly and requires very little processing. Less chemical energy than what it takes to render a barrel of crude oil into gasoline. Another take on this, which I have mentioned several times, is sugar-based ethanol. There is already a large industry in S. America for this, the downside is importing this product maybe cost prohibitive. However, there is not doubt in my mind that American companies would jump on the bandwagon. This would provide employment to thousands of workers, raise their standard of living, and provide a eco-friendly fuel that can power our SUVs as well as gasoline. 2. Planning For those of us who live in the East this is less of a problem, but many people who live on the left-coast know that proper planning can make all the difference in the creation of a community. This is a point I have pounded on several times but zoning is EVERYTHING. You zone everything so far away you are breeding more drivers, and more consumption of fuels. 3. Solar Power can work I know there are non-believers but solar panels on a house can reduce your energy cost. If 100 buildings in say, NYC added solar panels to the top of there buildings there is no doubt in my mind that people's energy bills would go down. Also it would make people more conscientious of the energy they use by adding some kind of meter on thermostats. Most people don't know they are pulling so much juice. Show em! __________________ Click here for further confusion
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