michelemichele

Groan

Mal. This is me. I mean, you & a couple others who went to FB lengths to get me over here weren't pining for my music video posts, were you?

Yes, Mal. I know, Mal. Kick Mal.

Hindsight - applicable in some cases: total cop out in others. Those who now admit 'the coalition of the willing' had no way to anticipate the resulting shitstorm tell those of us who saw it coming say we're running on hindsight.

Come on now. Some things are hard to size up, sure, and Sudan may be one example. Other situations aren't that difficult.

You've access to my FB page. When you've got a moment, go to that page, check out the books, write something on my wall so I know you've been there, then I'll be (ecstatic to) recommend the best of those titles. It's like pieces of a puzzle falling in place. I dunno, getting a grasp on these things is a big deal to me (no life, no life). If you don't have time, OK.

...But when I talk with you about Rwanda, I'm not going out on the limb I would be if Sudan as a focus, and you don't have to take my word for it: there are people who know more, write well, and a few (not many) books later, at the very least, you'd see what I'm on about -- even if you still disagree with some principles viz-a-viz (an overhauled) UN.Look. The UN had all the info it needed to make those informed decisions: that information was set aside. Hardly unique, really, organizations - and individual people - do it all the time.

If I can think of a way to sum it up better without wandering all the hell over the playing field, I'll write it in another post.

Wtf. I dunno, is it really such massive leap of logic when one nation's in there two? three? weeks after its government decided to act (RE Rwanda - France). Standing armies make a difference? +/- whatever ammendities (supplies, training) those troops may or may not enjoy depending on the nation?

'Reading books and reports written after events' - oh boy. Read a few of them before writing them off.

If not, should UN rely on spy networks that would gather needed info on timely basis? To cover conflicts around the world, how big will this network have to be? Do you want UN going through your garbage? (only if they take it out )
[/quote]**shakes head**

Like... You really think such a thing would be necessary. (shaking head again)

Lack of info/data - whatever - isn't usually the problem eh. Minimizing its relevence is. 9/11's a pretty good example, Nazi Germany's another.

(leaving us into another brutal question, but there's this Caesar IV game I want to try - fuckin thing's in French, goddamnit)
Well yeah, & all our countries have gone through long periods of absolutism. I already used that deep thought haven't I (game is calling me).

Just one question: don't we enable some at our convenience, for 'the wrong reasons' mentioned in another post? (this doesn't mean: invade)80% agreement with you, only... seems like revolution now would be a harder fight than it was a century ago, and usually, things get worse (Kagame's an exception).

Do you mean arming people without going in? I have a lot of problems with this idea.Aha I knew it. Must be my emoting. Here I agree, actually. Could be those business people aren't so rare, but at this time, they seem that way, esp after decades? centuries?-long arrangements where gov't & business interests become one.

...Not that I think all aid should be severed, but there isn't a lot of intelligence with much of it, unless Goma's relief camps were an exception to the rule.fuckmegentlywithachainsawwhataquestion

You call that a simple scenario.

Can I have a day to think this over please. If your plane was Russian or Chinese or American, it's an omfg situation.

Not really... (try 'conflicted').

A lot of solutions are more like untried theories, which may or may not 'work', take time, and require first-world countries set aside a few of our own interests. Some of those would hurt. Some are really strange -- sorry, Africa again: IE - how do you redraw a continent's borders and on whose say so?

This was a great documentary, not depressing, not fluffy happy:
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

In a way, off topic. Or maybe not, just goes back to a point you were making yourself about education.

PS: Apologies to those disgusted with my verbiage - angry Canadians swear a lot

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ribbet

michelemichele

PS: re the doc posted - you might want to skip to the second part & watch it first.

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ribbet

Malkavian

Hey, you know U96, so your music posts are not all bad And the Perfect Day of course....
Lol, i did... you have a lot of books. As it happens, i was helping a friend help a couple of chix move yesterday, and hunted down her Collapse (by Diamond) on a bookshelf... Wanted to read that one for a while now. BTW, was Porno as good as Trainspotting? Those are another couple on my "must read list".

Kofi Annan said he didn't trust that info in that documentary; he said intelligence can be used to manipulate. That's very wise of him, imo (see - Iraq and WMDs).


If I can think of a way to sum it up better without wandering all the hell over the playing field, I'll write it in another post.

Overhyping isn't too good either... Lol, and no, i don't think UN will be going through your garbage but... still, it's not that easy to interpret the info properly. Most of the killings were done with machetes. How to tell if i buy a machete to cut neighbors, or bushes?


Ah, Ceasar IV, i've heard about it... Not sure if i ever tried to though... Think been busy playing Hearts of Iron II back then

Indeed we do, and we shouldn't...
Well, if there were no outsiders tilting the battlefield unfairly, it wouldn't be that hard, imo (the revolution bit). And no, no arming anybody.

Relief camps are all great and such, but it will hardly help in the long term... I've read Diamond's chapter on Rwanda. Lol, no wonder they had a genocide... 3%/year population growth with densities greater than in the UK in a country without mechanized agriculture. No wonder they killed both Hutus and Tutsies in large part without distinction... No wonder they used machetes and so many people were doing the killings... Ethnic hatred was just an excuse - in reality it was just poor desperate people stealing land from slightly less poor and desperate people... Population in Rwanda continues to grow at 3%/year. Barring some miracle, i bet they'll have another genocide in the next decade... And then another... and another...
Sure, it's a very slow flying plane. And they stop for donuts Remember, you are a UN peace keeper, you are well armed and equipped, and have means at your disposal to shoot the plane down. There is no significant threat to your life in either case, so the only consequences are political/diplomatic.
My very strong desire not to answer questions such as these is the main reason i'm a non-interventionist. The honest answer is i have no clue how to redraw their borders, and i doubt many people do aside from Africans themselves... British/Belgian/French imperialists knew that answer quite well, but that did any good for Africans....

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Woof!

michelemichele

Don't forget Depeche Mode. Maybe Utah Saints? Porno was a great book, right up there with Trainspotting. If you really do check out some of those other titles, it'll be good comic relief.

Diamond is good too, though he got a little excessive over Greenland. Like, uhhhh. How much Greenland can a person take?

The big volume on Africa's (the one with the yellow cover...?) is handy when reading these more detailed accounts; otherwise, it's a bit on the dry side. Geldof's book is nifty: he has these little details uncommon in more ...journalistic? (terrible word for it, sorry) accounts, and being a good story-teller, he can be amusing.

He would say that, wouldn't he? I guess we'll be talking about this again in a few months, after you've read some things, and BTW, if you have book suggestions, please let me know. Maybe you've a point there (maybe): machetes are common to every household, they're useful for non-lethal work. That large an order was excessive -- though I suppose it'd be easy to slip under the radar since they weren't fire-arms, and this might qualify for your hindsight category. We'll see what you think later. BTW, I started the reading streak with Dallaire's book, and was so/so on it: was it all true, could I really depend on his interpretation given his role in Rwanda? As it turned out, other books backed up his account, even when one or the other writer was ambivalent about him (IE Paul Rusesabagina, the manager famous in Hotel Rwanda). It's really interesting how little discrepancies can do that, too, but I'm going off on a tangent again.
Bloody damn irritating trying to play that thing in French. Maybe I should ask AuC if he wants it, bah.
If only it could be done, but it's not possible, especially in this age, when anyone with the means can go in, and they do. Amazing what people will do if they smell profit.
Well... I dunno, I came to see Rwanda as more developed, less barren. It's probably just me, but when I went after Diamond's description, I saw desert or some such thing. He had a point, definitely, but there was an old class hatred that had been passed down over a few generations. You know, they don't even know if there really were Tutsi and Hutu tribes: Belgians made it up. Anyway, those relief camps were set up for Hutu refugees. It was an unusual situation. In the end, Kagame sent troops into Zaire to escort refugees back into Rwanda. Once they saw there wasn't going to be mass retaliation, most came back, and on their return, whatever aid that's been asked for has been more or less for reconstruction purposes, not something to go on indefinitely. Now, with the return of thousands of expatriates from all over the world (people exiled from the fifties onward), the population's pretty much back to what it was.

If something happens to Kagame, Rwanda may slide back into chaos, so yes, there may be another purge coming. Tutsis are understandably dissatisfied with prosecution of war criminals; Hutus fear that, and some still believe the hype viz-a-viz race relations. Crazy shit.
You've tried communicating with the pilot, tried communicating with your headquarters who try reaching said pilot (+ embassy? whatever), you fire warning shots, because the big boys could really pile it on should there be some misunderstanding... If he still keeps coming (if he starts firing), you shoot.
Some of those Africans will have agendas of their own, too.

You may find your interest piqued as you read more about it. Like, at home, if I start one sentence about Africa, everyone whimpers. Geldof's DVD arrived: more angst. My how the grousing ceased as everyone got sucked in. It may be worth looking for at a video store (to rent, I mean) for those times you get bored of pron (doesn't that stuff get terribly redundant after a while?)

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ribbet

CosmicRocker

Unfreaking real. I can't believe anyone would even consider starting such a thread, muchless giving up soverienity.

I used to hear talk of " 1 world government" conspiracies, trying to undermine the USA.

Now it looks like some...citizens.... would willing just pass it up.

I wonder how many times The Founding Fathers spin in their graves hearing this crap.

I used to think that some, Obama supporters are far left.
Some are just freakin looney.

Hopefully this is just an exrteme way out fringe idea.

Why do you think The world's oppressed want to come here?
We are free individuals, but some would willing give up that freedom

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Try a little love. and it cant go wrong
Get on the right thing
My little love, you cant go wrong
Get on the right thing .

BillCosby

LOL............ Yea you unable to imagine aint hard to believe.........

Well good to see you wandering out from all your posts about how Obama can't win cause he is black & all that............

Welcome back to the real world....


So why not say exactly why it is bad & who it is bad for..........

& remember it was you & others that wanted to move on & here you are tugging on the Obama chain again.....

Some of you ppl just can't let go... Just can't move on... Get over it..........

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Preventive war is not war!!!!Counter-terror is not terror

Malkavian

Ah, yes, Depeche Mode, how could i forget. Utah Saints are not too bad either, a bit too... disco'y???

Yeah, i know lots of Porno, but not that one. It is getting embarrassing.

Lol... not there yet. I did make it past the Easter people, and read about Rwanda, skipping ahead.

Will do... though i haven't read much books lately (a shame, i know *hangs head*), so i'll stick to your list for a while. As for Kofi, so you think he wouldn't complain about genocide if he really was certain it was going to happen?

OK... we'll leave this for later.

AuC speaks French? Quebec or something?

Perhaps, but that's black market, they are open to everybody without distinction, and money spent on one gun means less is left for another... as long as weapons don't just pour in freely through some kind of loan scheme or grant, it'll be manageable.
Rwanda is more developed, they have better land than others, so it is not barren, but they have so many people that the average farm size is less than an acre, apparently. That's not enough to feed without mechanization. And mechanization will bring its own problems - to get improved yields you need large scale agriculture (no sense in having tractor for every acre)... so where will all those displaced people go? Usual answer is cities and urbanization, but that requires development of industry, and if industry could have been easily developed in Rwanda, it would have been done a long time ago. Too many people, not enough skills and resources... To educate, for every dollar you have, the amount of students keeps increasing at 3%/year. Thus to just simply keep up, ignoring everything else (i wish that were possible in real life), you need a 3%/year increase in education funding. If you are already poor, where will such increases come from? If everything else is factored in, i wouldn't be surprised if the real increases necessary would be above 10%/year. And keep in mind, that just to keep whatever miserable education system they have functioning. To actually improve it, it becomes depressing to even count.

What would be the actions of the US in this case? If the plane was shot down?
I don't think i live in a civilized enough area to rent DVDs about Africa. It's jungle out here Neflix maybe. As for pron, yes it does. I'm currently on vacation from pron, for various reasons, but nothing being really new out there is one of them. Eh, it'll come back...

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Woof!