PursuitOfHappinessParty

Some kids are gonna fail. We need janitors, too.

Cold, but the truth of it.

As to parents involvement, that's a scary proposition. We have the government up our ass enough, illegally IMHO, and yet this would invite more big brotherism into the home if we aren't careful.

But there are ways. Increased involvement can be acheived by having a realistic curriculum that meets the national standards. The homework this entails demands that either the parent get involved, the kid finds a way, or the kid suffers and fails.
If the parents don't appreciate the need for involvement, then they can remove their kid from the public funded schooling and enroll them in private school or homeschool.

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" Tie two birds together and though they have four wings they cannot fly " Blind Master in 'Circle Of Iron'

Malkavian

Aye, matey. I went to a community college (has pluses and minuses) while i worked (and work paid my tuition, with me being a lowly part time bank teller), and then went to a public school... that cost me $20K per year (2.5 years), with tuition paid by state and Fed grants. A few private ones too, but small ones. I got out with $35K in debt because i spent my internship money on hookers and crack instead of paying back the loans... And i didn't work while in school. But that the fault of my own dumb self rather than education system... i certainly had options.

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Woof!

OldManOnFire

[quote]Sorry...I think I missed responding to a couple of your posts?

Every shareholder has complete control...they can buy and they can sell the stock whenever they wish...this is control not of the company but of their own destiny.

I don't understand yours and others fascination with CEO pay. The CEO doesn't give this lavish and sometimes ridiculous compensation to themselves...it's provided by the Board and approved by the shareholders. If you don't like someone's pay package, then don't buy their stocks and don't patronize the company. If you wish to do something about it, then buy at least 5% of the stock and do a hostile takeover, then make changes.

Well I think the so-called power of people like J.P.Morgan or Rockefeller, or Gety and others of this stature were much greater in their days than it is today. What's changed more today is Congress and DC pandering to all businesses which gives a sense that business has too much power with the government.

You have no data whatsoever to back up this statement. Who do you think gives the billion$ each year to charitable groups...the lower classes? Unless they are freaks, every one of them in the millionaire and billionaire clubs provide charitable monies.

Charitable giving is not an excuse...it's one of the outcomes of their financial position.

Why shouldn't they have power? They provide jobs. They provide new technologies and products. They provide taxes. They provide positive economic situations for entire local areas. Most all of them are charitable. Wal-Mart which you and others hate is the first to provide free products during emergency situations. IF you and others hate corporations so much, then don't buy anything that is produced by them. And IF enough people feel the same as you, then the evil corporations will eventually get your message.

So naive you are.

So if I have comments and opinions I'm self-righteous and you are not...give me a fricken break!

All stupid talk not worth responding.

Because those who pay NOTHING now will all have to pay with the tax.

This is not a 'national sale tax' this is a 'luxury tax' which is not what you mentioned earlier. Go ahead and tax the rich and let all those luxury item businesses close the doors and terminate all the workers and bankrupt the suppliers--great idea.

Since it is a public forum, one would think you might consider your language and generalized personal attacks. They are not necessary to make a point and they surely offend some people.

Enron did good and bad and big deal since it was one company out of millions. Why not find the good in corporations and rag on this for a while?

No one is holding a gun to your head to buy certain stocks. If you do and you continue to complain...then you need to up your medications.

I think now I am remembering why I didn't respond to this post.

You don't understand psychology. As long as you perpetrate this idea in your head, make up all the reasons why it exist, you will feed there is classism. For those who mind their own business, focus on getting ahead in life, and can find achievement, they would never give any thought to your so-called classism.

It's really simple; stop worrying about every one else and concentrate on yourself...take control of YOUR future and if you do you will find the route to happiness...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

OldManOnFire

[quote]Health care insurance through employers has been traditional...and although it has declined, over 50% of workers have health care insurance through their employers.

I never used the word 'sole' but most all large businesses have tuition assistance programs and outside of SS and private investments, all retirement plans are through business...penisons, 401K, etc.

To answer your rhetorical question; I am originally from Nibiru!!

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

PursuitOfHappinessParty

[quote=OldManOnFire;204803]You just reversed yourself in one sentence. Individually, you have zero control of the company unless you're a majority stock-holder. You can't change one thing the company does or projects.



I don't care about CEO pay. I could use CAPS to make that clearer? I was just clearing up a point you made.
'..buy at least 5% of the stock...' would be a typical elitist answer.


Exxon obliterated all quarter reports. Then did it again. Then Wal-Mart took over the number one spot. Your examples could barely buy majority stock interests.
What's changed more today is the two-way cash/control that lobbyists now enjoy for their corporations.


You seriously saying the majority of charitable donations comes from corporations?


Corporations are now the only entity that provide jobs, technologies, products, help in emergencies, pay taxes?

How about a more correct view that they are an alternate for the above, and the effect is less of all of the above?


This from a corporation apologists who's drank the corporation kool-aid.


Not luxury tax like taxing boats over $X. Read what I write, instead of formulating your reply as you go.

Luxury items in a national sales tax are for items that are not necessities (food, medicine, etc) which makes those items a luxury. Since that covers everything other than necessities, it's across the board taxation without regard of nationality of goods nor of economic standing of those paying tax. This does not target the rich nor does it target or impact businesses.


You are well known for this kinda crap. You think you can talk down to people, and get snotty when they don't agree with you. You love the fast and loose tongue when it's yours, then whine like a bitch when you get some back. Live with it. Post snotty to me, I return the fire ten-fold.

Try cleaning up your debate tactics before lecturing me.

This isn't about good or bad. It's about abuse and elitism, it's about Boston Harbor, it's about monopolies, it's about centralization of power and money. It's about fair and equal and level playing fields.

Like this snotty comment that serves no purpose, from a person who doesn't like general attacks? Must mean general attacks on you, the hypocrite of PG.



The weakness of your position coming back to you now?

You are a very scary Tory. Thankfully, people felt differently than you in 1776.

Yes, be a corporatist cheerleading robot and do what I'm told. How very American of you.

__________________
" Tie two birds together and though they have four wings they cannot fly " Blind Master in 'Circle Of Iron'

OldManOnFire

[quote]It's not my figure...I'm just referencing it to create the discussion. The accuracy of the number cannot be debated since it's unclear from state to state how they quantify their results. But it is the publicly stated number and for me it does show that the education system is more a drop-out factory than anything else.

They may or may not which was the original question I asked QG to get some idea of parental involvement.

I don't really care if they are inner or outer schools...I just care about the 28% who fail to graduate and another 20% who probably can't qualify for a job at Wal-Mart. The entire gist of my position is how do we create an equitable education system for all kids?

You are probably correct. This is why I keep saying the education system must provide all that is necessary without 'expectations' from parents or other resources.

But what should happen to the millions of people who simply cannot manage their lives as society prefers them to do? If the government does not support these people, who will? Do we let more of them become homeless, or under the influence, or die? For some portion of the American public, whatever percentage this might be, they will always be sucking the government teat.

But the property taxes are not collected by neighborhood...they are usually collected by the county, so ALL schools within that county should receive equitable funding. In my opinion there is zero reason to have one school a shit-hole and another fancy and clean.

I don't know what any of these people have done in encouraging development in poorer areas of cities, but I do know that Magic Johnson and his team have been doing precisely this for many years now--with significant success. I know wonderful programs have been started in New Orleans for this same reason. I'm sure there are others around the nation.

This will pick up a few people but just like you and me and every one else it is almost impossible to get us to make significant changes. So if we know this, sure let's try to do something about it, but until it is resolved, let's focus on every single kid and make sure they are receiving an education which is applicable to their capabilities and interest...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

OldManOnFire

[quote][quote=Quirkygal;204145]The first link is an open letter to the next president:

SDP - An Open Letter to the Next President

Comer is discussed frequently in current teaching programs:

SDP - Overview

From the link:

"The Comer Process is based on certain key assumptions:


Due to a lack of developmental support in their homes and communities, many of today’s children come to school with developmental gaps that impair their ability to learn.
While more children come to school with experience deficits, we expect all students to meet the high standards dictated by today’s workplace and citizenship needs.

The School Development Program recognizes and addresses the experience deficit that inhibits the development of many of today’s children. On the other hand, the SDP does not accept the academic deficit theory that leads to tracking and lowered expectations of minority and ESL students.

The Comer Process is based on the premise that all students can reach high levels of academic achievement. They are entitled to the opportunity to reach their highest potential.[/QUOTE]

In bold above are very conflicting statements. '...all students can reach high levels of academic achievement' is completely different from '...to reach their highest potential'.

Since all students are different, then it is imperative that we approach education with this as the cornerstone of the program. And let's give all kids the tools they need to 'achieve their potential' without a need to politically group them in a tidy little package.

This is what drives me crazy! If we already know that many parents cannot or will not provide parental involvement, they why do we keep thinking they will??? I'm not saying give up on the parent, I'm just saying as long as we have parents who are not adequately involved, let's design a system that will still benefit the kids without this external expectation...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

OldManOnFire

Okay...if we know this...and this issue negatively affects their educational experience in K-3, then why don't we change the education system to fix this?

What happens if kids start school at age 4 (or K minus 1) where they are prepped for K?

Or if they will start in grade K, then change the expectation of reading and + and - to the end of 1st grade?

I'll bet there are several issues like this one which can be resolved but we just talk about them for decades at the expense of the kids??

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

OldManOnFire

[quote]Excellent point which supports exactly what I've been saying regarding parental involvement...if the teacher or education system CANNOT control or expect support from external sources, then all the focus must be during class time.

And this focus cannot be equitable since each kid has different capabilities. If kids can be divided into three categories I mentioned many posts back, this allows that focus. But in the early years of school this is when kids are grouped more than ever. I say reverse this, put the kid down a path that will allow them to achieve 'their' potential...not NCLB or whatever 'grouping' decides.

Can't remember my original post but I think I said use ratios like 10:1 in the early grades and expand this to 50:1 and even 100:1 for certain classes in the upper grades.

But I still believe the most critical aspect of educating 'all' kids to their fullest potential is to first recognize that 'all' kids are not created equal. Therefore, break them into 3 or more categories when they are young, challenge them but don't break them.

How about boarding-school?

And this works great for those parents who are interested enough to check but does nothing for those who do not.

I don't disagree with you in principle, but I disagree 100% when so many kids are failing because they lack structure at home. I think there should be active programs for parents but at the same time the education system cannot be failing these kids because of lousy parents.

And another really critical issue for me is who in the hell in this day and age are the heroes of these kids? Who do they admire? Who can be considered their public mentors? I have thought to myself about this and tried to name people in public life who I might admire or greatly respect and it's almost impossible to come up with a name. Do we want our kids emulating insane-Bush or cardiac-Cheney? Who today, like Mr. Wizard and Carl Sagan of years past, inspires science and math? Society itself is pretty crappy today so it's easy for me to understand why so many kids are distracted...

__________________
Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...

Quirkygal

I read something recently about Oklahoma (at least I think it was Oklahoma) having a good Preschool model. The studies have shown that there is improvement, but that it levels off by 4th grade.