OldManOnFire

[quote]Now this seems quite reasonable to me so if you and I can spot critical design flaws in the system, why can't tens of thousands of educators do better than us? I will never buy the 'we don't have enough money' idea! We have enough money to do anything 'we wish' to do. I'd say if we are not doing something then it's clear we don't wish to do it. The educators and the government have failed to create an equitable public education system. When both can step up to the plate, and do what is right, Congress must be mandated to provide the funding.

But education cannot be about city size or funding--it must be equitable across the nation.

I don't agree with this at all. What if changes in the public education system were made to create a school year prior to kindergarten or 1st grade which does nothing more than provide a basic understanding of English? A prep-year to prepare for elementary school. I'd further say that many of the so-called English-speaking kids might also enroll in these classes...it's not just the immigrants or the Hispanics who have trouble with the English language.

Us parents need to learn that all of our darlings are not geniuses. Some are going to fail--this is life.

And if people prefer that their kids are not held back or failed, then design a parallel tutoring system into the schools so that with some extra work the kid won't be held back.

Nutrition is vitally important for the brain processes and for energy to get through the day. I say why not provide breakfast and lunch to every kid--free?

I say that kids should be given the opportunity to achieve public education without the need for a lousy dime! If we truly want a better educated population, then we must remove all obstacles for all kids.

I agree with you 100% and this goes right back to the issue I have which is our government and it's educators have no idea what their goals are?! And even if they have partial goals, a hit-and-miss system, they have been incapable of providing the funding. So the US has a failed education system, too many kids are not given full opportunities to meet their potentials, other nations are kicking our asses, and life goes on...hecka of a job...hecka of a job...

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PursuitOfHappinessParty

[quote=OldManOnFire;209114][quote]

Federalizing is the only way to ensure the U.S. can keep-up with the world, to be sure. This being Washington we're talking about, tho, means that agency would have to be carefully designed and watched very closely.
I place more blame on the $ than you, but I absolutely do agree that its the system that's more to blame - How they use the money they have now.



Even if nationalized, population limitations on an area basis would be a factor I would imagine.



But you do agree. You just allowed for the mechanizations (I didn't, I was going as-is) for providing the English skills necessary to then enter regular schools.



Not to mention awards for nothing.

I could support this. Most schools have alternative 'special ed' type classes. If the regular curriculum and school's operations were cleaned up, then these kids could then be afforded more attention without impacting the rest of the student's or their education.



Most schools offer this to kids that can't afford brkfst/lunch. Even with no money on his books, my kid can still get pnt/jelly sandwhiches. That the rest of us pay alleviates a great deal of financial stress on the school.

If schools operations are redesigned, as we've discussed, this might alter - tho I think that those of us can pay for lunch continuing to do so will alleviate the over-all money burden and allow school funding to focus on the educational aspects.

As an aside to the money, teachers need to be paid better. Period.



Sometimes I think our public schools are Employee Factories only.

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W.M.DEEEZ

Other nations are kicking our asses in school, because they're kicking our asses at home.

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PursuitOfHappinessParty

Elaboration?

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W.M.DEEEZ

We've chewed on this one already here...family structure/discipline is non existant in the home in America.


In upper class homes, kids are spoiled rotten, and in lower class homes, there is, too often, no father in sight.

The obvious answer will always start in the home. If you want kids to start school speaking english, then teach the parents english.

I say the money will be best spent by undoing generations of ills in this country. If someone...regardless of race...wants to crawl out of the muck, then we should offer them a rope.

That rope, is to stop the downward spiral that is the poor attitude toward education. We've discussed the reasons why the "old system" doesn't work.

Maybe we need to correct some of the negative changes in society, before we waste more money trying to create a new education system that addresses each and every ill there is.



I've been really involved w/the youth in my community over the years. It is truly sad, and disheartening when you see what has become of "the American family".



This whole "land of the free" has festered into a real mess. Some of those nations that we consider "backward thinking" are the ones with their noses to the grindstone, and their kids are blowing ours away.

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OldManOnFire

[quote][quote=PursuitOfHappinessParty;209136][quote=OldManOnFire;209114]'Federalizing' actually won't assure much of anything unless the entire public education system is overhauled. And I'll bet my farm that this will not happen in my lifetime.

Throwing more money at a failed system cannot be the answer. When the education idiots design an education system that makes sense for all kids, to achieve their highest potentials, the money will be mandated by Congress.

Of course it's a factor, and we know it's a factor, so the system must be designed with this knowledge. Do you believe it's fair to punish those kids who live in Mayberry RFD while others who just happen to live in 90210 get everything they need?

No I don't agree. If English language skills are a huge problem, then the public education system must be designed to deal with this--not to point fingers and place blame on kids who are born into the situation they are born into.

Ask yourself this question; Why do we have problems? It's because whatever we are doing is not correct. So if we know this, then why don't we change what we are doing? If we need to teach English to millions of immigrant kids from all over the world, then this is what we must do. Complaining about it does nothing but perpetuate the problems.

Any idiot can go to the Census Bureau and see the government's forecast of who and how many immigrants are entering the USA. This is knowledge that government and all educators have known for decades, and even though they understand the immigration population growth, what are they doing to integrate these immigrant kids into public education--very little if anything. Then everyone blames these immigrants and kids for not speaking perfect English and faults them for bringing down the entire education system--this is complete stupidity!

One man's NOTHING might be another man's achievement.

It's not just 'those kids' who impact others. All kids impact all other kids because all kids are not created equal.

But why even have this as an issue? Just provide nutrition with education for all kids.

My position is to eliminate the need for kids to have a single dime in the public education system.

I don't like blanket statements in which everyone gets pay raises even though many do not deserve them. In fact many don't even deserve to have their jobs. Just as there are in every single profession, there are great teachers, average teachers, and bad teachers. Paying more money to bad teachers does nothing but enforce their bad teaching. I agree that average teachers should receive COL and merit increases and that great teachers should be paid much more based mostly on merit, but unless I'm mistaken, the compensation process for public educators is based either all or mostly on tenure and continuing education credits.

All people in the workplace, except for the owner of a business, are employees. A CEO is an employee...a clerk is an employee. And since all people are not created equal, some will do well as CEO's while others will do well helping me on my farm. As long as each one was given the opportunity to achieve their full potential, the rest is up to the individuals...

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Quirkygal

This is being dealt with, but it takes time to make adjustments.

I think the "complaining" stems from the fact that NCLB punishes schools that are deemed to be failing...usually schools with a high # of English Language Learners. It takes TIME to learn English, damnit!

Why not REWARD schools that do well? (Not what NCLB does...)


That's very true. Some kids learn a lot and still don't fare well on the standardized tests (given in English in CA).


Ketchup is not a vegetable!



That would be nice...

That's true, but you must consider the degree of difficulty involved. The country club neighborhood Kindergarten teacher has a cushy job compared to the gal (or guy) teaching in a poor area.

OldManOnFire

[quote]I know some things are being accomplished although most at a snail's pace, but this English/Spanish issue has been going on for years in most places and decades in some. After all this 'time' the best we are doing is a 70% graduation rate and I say 'time' is no longer the issue...it's incompetence at every level.

Once again, IF we know it 'takes time to learn English, damnit', then why don't we design the appropriate time into our education system? Example; if a kid cannot learn enough English during one school year prior to kindergarten, then let the program be 2 or 3 years in length. WHEN the kid comprehends enough English to enter the general education program (1st grade) then they might do this at age 6 or 7. This is back to my statement that all kids are not created equal...therefore they can't receive the identical education. If a kid must learn English first then obviously when they enter 1st or 2nd grades they are going to be one to two years older than other kids--so what?

I haven't been following it closely but in CA which you know about aren't there many schools who are failing NCLB?? I just visited the CA education website: Reports - NCLB (CA Dept of Education) and interesting to me is that they can't even provide data after 2004??!! These reports are required yet they provide nothing after 2004??

I don't really like 'rewarding schools that do well'. I believe it is incumbent on administrators and educators to assure that all schools do well. If one school is achieving something particularly well, then make sure this is happening at all schools. If and when all schools are brought to equal levels, then I agree to some friendly competitions.

Once again you point out one of the most critical ills of the public education system; public schools should all be the same...not some as country-clubs and others as relics!! This is why I say terminate all administrators for allowing this to happen. And people wonder why we have class-warfare in this country?? The funding of the education system must be removed from local county taxes and be allocated through a national system with funding provided by Congress. This funding must allow the best of the best in all neighborhoods...

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OldManOnFire

Fixing Our Schools
Former Labor Secretary William Brock leads the New Commission on the Skills of the American Workforce, created to report on the state of U.S. education.

How can we fix American education?

First, we have to agree that we have a problem. In the last 25 years, spending has risen 240% while performance has barely changed. Only 68% of students graduate from high school, and many states require only eighth-grade skills in reading and math to get a diploma. We need to start with better early-childhood education. We need the very best among us to become teachers, and we need to ensure that standardized tests of rote knowledge don’t drive education away from the very things that have made America special: critical thinking, creativity, innovation, and teamwork.

You’ve said publicly that we are failing our teachers. How?

We recruit new teachers largely from the bottom 30% of entering college students, train them, and then assign them to the toughest jobs in the most challenging schools with very low pay. When the results fall short, we tell them, “You just have to work harder.” Most feel that they have no voice in their schools. This is no way to treat professionals.

Why isn’t education a bigger political issue?

Primarily because there is no quick fix. It’s complex. Perhaps most of all, no one really wants to admit that we are leaving millions of children behind. Education is the key to better jobs, higher incomes, and greater growth in what has become an extremely competitive global economy. Nothing is more important than education. Absolutely nothing.


For those who give a rip about public education, what do you think about this article??

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