Public education in the USA is a drop-out factory!!! - Page 2

Rollerball · 05-21-2008, 11:44 AM

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Originally Posted by TrueBlueAmerican

At the macro level having more and more drop outs is detrimental to society because this creates a mob of dumb masses that could theoretically vote stupidly... or not at all.

But at the micro level, if you made it through the educational system and went on to higher education, having more and more people drop out at the early stages makes you more valuable as a skilled laborer since there are fewer and fewer graduates to do jobs a dropout cant.

Unfortunately there are enough people these days, and few enough jobs, to fill both categories. Bush being elected twice shows that society is already damaged and dumb masses can be a majority if they are manipulated correctly, and jobs are still more scarce than college grads.

ppatt · 05-21-2008, 09:20 PM

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Originally Posted by ObamalosesKY

The lower class uneducated comes from the liberal party, illegal aliens, poor black project areas. That is your base, get used to it.

Huh? The Grand Old White Mans Party is the one for which the middle to lower class voting against their own self-interest made the difference. They had to keep up a good act and sacrifice a few things they didn't give a shit about, like the separation of church and state to keep the ignorant non-elite in the fold...so the elite could get what they want and thought they deserved.

What's your excuse?

OldManOnFire · 05-26-2008, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE=ppatt;185576 They do not employ the "lost cause" rationale and they provide education for all, equally. Success is what the student makes of it but this idea that some cannot be elevated by a superior education smacks of elitism and, amazingly enough, is most often employed by parents who have not attained a high level of education themselves.

An interesting personal behavior many of us have today in the USA is this sense of entitlement. Many of us believe we should be promoted in the workplace, or receive much higher compensation, or that we can perform just about any job, or we can go into credit-debt to buy things beyond our earning power, etc. etc. etc. We very seldom look in our mirrors and ask 'what can I do to advance myself?'. We want someone else or something to solve all of our issues for us. We expect equal rights in everything today yet none of us are equal--how stupid is this entitlement? Since we're all different, it is detrimental to design an education system that is geared to the lowest common denominator, or even the highest, or even the average--all people are different...period.

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My parents could not have taught me a lick of math...my forte and academic success in that area has kept me steadily employed. They had the wisdom to support our local school system and teachers and could not have afforded tuition at a private school.

Parents are the same as students--all created differently. I've said before that a parents role in education is to make sure their kids are fed well, they sleep well, and they have a dedicated place to study. If they can do more then great...but many cannot even provide these basics and it's not malicious...it's just life.

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Today it has turned into a contest between uneducated parents and teachers. Do I detect a hint of jealousy?

I'll disagree with you on this one. Not clear exactly what you are saying but you wrote '...uneducated parents and teachers' grammatically meaning both are uneducated?? I think you mean uneducated parents and educated teachers--yes...no? But it should not be about this at all. I don't have to have my education to have the capability to analyze, question and propose new ideas. It is righteous for one person to believe they are smarter than another person.

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My wife is a teacher and daily experiences the varied reactions parents have as their little darlings inevitably run up against reality and authority outside the home for the first time.

On a bell-curve, teachers also land everywhere on that curve, from the lowest ranges to the highest. All teachers are different as well as all humans are different--they're not from some perfect mold. So the best thing to do is remove the personalities from the picture and focus on the little darlings.

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What she hears from disgruntled parents who claim to have all the answers despite the glaring imperfections of their children most often offers perfect explanations for how their little darlings arrived at the pickle they are in by the time there is a parent-teacher or parent-student-teacher conference.

In my opinion a teacher cannot ask more from the parents than the three items I mentioned above that should be provided to their kids. After this, it's 100% up to the teacher to teach and the student to learn. And since all kids and all teachers and all parents are different, the outcome of this will be anywhere between illiteracy to genius. How does one take this scope of variables and create a neat little education system that will equally benefit all teachers, parents and kids??? THIS IS THE TRILLION-DOLLAR QUESTION!!!

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More often than not the parent will come to the conference red-faced and full of rage with a story related by the offending student that somehow omitted the basic facts.

This is why the personalities must be eliminated because no one is ever satisfied and it's always going to be a he-said, she-said scenario. I personally believe there is enough blame to go around for everyone; parents, kids, teachers, administrators, government officials, citizens!

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And these are the parents that will straighten out the educational system? So the entire thing becomes an issue all about "Me", the parent...whether one is one of "those kinds of parents" or not.

When I was in my high-tech career, and in development projects or efficiency programs, and whiz-bang ideas were greatly needed, often these ideas come from the most unsuspecting people! An old adage says; There is no such thing as a bad idea. And I agree 100% with this. I'll never be so arrogant or righteous in anything I do that I will not listen to other people's ideas or solutions. It's part of the process to get from point-a to point-b and it's great because it includes everyone...no matter their bias or lack of education or whatever.

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But then there are other differences in those countries. There are all sorts of stats including % that is spent on education (defying the "just throw money at it" gem of a meme).

It's only about money to the extent that we force that issue. Here's a really abstract example; give me any one student when they are six years old, and let me spend perhaps 15 hours per week with them, and in about ten years or less, I will give you a high-school equivalent graduate. All I need during this time is a 'place' to teach and reference materials. The cost to achieve this will be quite low and I doubt during this 10 years that money or budget will ever be the issue. Now if I needed layers of an expensive administration department, and a sports department, and food service, and unions, and government bureaucrats, etc. then things get expensive real fast. So perhaps someone needs to study how the money is spent in two areas; teachers and kids...and all the rest??

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Post secondary education is also government financed, often requiring the student to work a job or perform some other form of service.

Public-funded education should be 1st grade through an under-graduate degree or other vocational programs. To stop the public education at grade 12 with a 72% graduation rate is absurd at best.

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Those countries also take their government very seriously. For example in Sweden there was no question when the Secretary of Transportation got a DUI that they were out of there. It was just expected.

Responsibility!!!...we don't need no stinkin responsibility!!!

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We've not been failed by the educational system in this country. We've hardly supported it and it has become a political tool for those who evidently could care less, despite what they say.

Well...is it true that it is required for all kids to attend public education?? Or in some instances they can receive home schooling or equivalent private schooling?? If it is required, then the system must provide some measurable success for 'all' kids. Further, if it is required, then funding CANNOT be the decision of voters--it must come from the general tax base and fully and equitably fund the program no matter the demographics.

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Who doesn't believe an educated population to be a sign of national strength?

About 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the American citizens.

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So instead we make excuses, mostly laced with characterizations of others who are to blame. We've gone on just like this to bring our educational system to a level that keeps the cycle of easy answers and blame going. We do anything but support in a positive way. Wew rationalize reasons not to support saying things like "we just can't throw money at it."

Education is exactly like all the other highly critical issues in the USA today!! It's not working today, it won't work tomorrow, it's immensely complex, and it requires billion$ or trillion$ to fix...no wonder we have become proficient in procrastination...

Thanks for the comments ppatt...

OldManOnFire · 05-26-2008, 02:29 PM

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QUOTE=ppatt;185633 50:1, 100:1.

Sheesh...sheer genius. Now that could only come from one of those armchair educators. One of the wise looking in from the outside, no doubt.

You mock what you can't comprehend...sheer genius--not! My idea was to have grades 11-14 be the equivalent of under-graduate study--re-read my post to understand this. If it's college-level courses, then 50:1 and 100:1 are perfectly fine...sheer genius I would say!!

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It's that old irrationalism once again. I know the schtick. The experts have stewed for so long in their expertness that they can no longer be objective about that for which they are expert and that to which they've dedicated their lives. Maybe politicians or preachers can replace all the teachers. Maybe we need a crackdown on teachers since they are the problem or maybe a surge might work.

What you need is some violin music to go with your whine! THE current system produces a 72% graduation rate and in my opinion this is a drop-out factory. I can hardly hold this system in high esteem. So those 'experts', and their 'expertness', and their 'dedication' are not doing a very good job. And it makes no difference who is at fault, for if the faults are known, they should have been fixed by now. If 72% is the best they can do, then the Department of Education should state this in their mission statement: Our goal in the public education system is to have a 72% graduation rate--this is the best we can do.

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Now that's what we really need, less experience. The layman leading the expert, the uneducated showing those high-fallutin', know-it-all, smarty pants educators once and for all. The nerve of them thinking they know something about teaching. Well, we'll teach them, won't we?

I never thought I would find someone so willing to defend the 72% graduation rate as being just fine??

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Crass, ignorant scapegoating of "the elite" aside, haven't the last 8 years taught us that we need to elect someone smarter than ourselves..that experience counts for something?

I sincerely hope you are not talking about Obama for he has no experience...

OldManOnFire · 05-26-2008, 02:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Jonesy

PE could be so much better. Imagine like a Nintendo DS, but closer to notebook sized. It could be about as light as a DS, and nearly as inexpensive. The software could be created by the best teachers and software engineers. Textbooks, exercises and tests could all be part of the software.

The awesomeness of the device itself would propel students to better perform.

It's called the '$100 laptop computer' and takes the place of all books, contains all the tests and inter-active stuff, and can be used in or out of the classroom. There is little reason why some primary and secondary courses cannot be taught strictly via computer.

OldManOnFire · 05-26-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueBlueAmerican

At the macro level having more and more drop outs is detrimental to society because this creates a mob of dumb masses that could theoretically vote stupidly... or not at all.

But at the micro level, if you made it through the educational system and went on to higher education, having more and more people drop out at the early stages makes you more valuable as a skilled laborer since there are fewer and fewer graduates to do jobs a dropout cant.

Well perhaps public education should be optional?

Having more less-competent people will certainly swell the welfare rolls.

But then again, having too many smart people with not enough jobs to go around can be an issue as well.

Oh...I know...let's create a system that gives about a 72% graduation rate...not too dumb...not too smart...

DRS112 · 05-26-2008, 02:43 PM

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Originally Posted by OldManOnFire

It's called the '$100 laptop computer' and takes the place of all books, contains all the tests and inter-active stuff, and can be used in or out of the classroom. There is little reason why some primary and secondary courses cannot be taught strictly via computer.

I've taken online classes and they suck...you get very little out of them.

What I do like is the hybrid stuff they do....there's a program called blackboard. Basically it is your own web page with your classes on it. You can view your grades, links to supplement material, due dates and the teacher can post other material related to class.

Also, it makes it easier for students to interact with eachother or their teachers outside of the classroom...there is discussion areas and email capabilities...

This is standard for colleges now....and it might not be a bad idea to implement in highschool.

chrisbb · 05-26-2008, 02:56 PM

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Originally Posted by DRS112

I've taken online classes and they suck...you get very little out of them.

What I do like is the hybrid stuff they do....there's a program called blackboard. Basically it is your own web page with your classes on it. You can view your grades, links to supplement material, due dates and the teacher can post other material related to class.

Also, it makes it easier for students to interact with eachother or their teachers outside of the classroom...there is discussion areas and email capabilities...

This is standard for colleges now....and it might not be a bad idea to implement in highschool.

they call it WEBCT at my college. very handy for lazy folks like me

DRS112 · 05-26-2008, 02:59 PM

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Originally Posted by chrisbb

they call it WEBCT at my college. very handy for lazy folks like me

probably similar products made by different companies...but yeah, it's great...

OldManOnFire · 05-26-2008, 07:31 PM

QUOTE=DRS112;190026 What I do like is the hybrid stuff they do....there's a program called blackboard. Basically it is your own web page with your classes on it. You can view your grades, links to supplement material, due dates and the teacher can post other material related to class.

Also, it makes it easier for students to interact with eachother or their teachers outside of the classroom...there is discussion areas and email capabilities...[/quote]

What you mention is a great step. I'd like to see a hybrid of teachers and computers in say 4th through 12th grades. In many classes there can be a combination of maybe one weekly classroom study and interaction with other studies of the same subject done on the computer anytime during that week. There are surely lots of ideas how to marry computers with teaching but like most things it will probably take decades to implement this.

05-26-2008, 07:31 PM	#20 (permalink)
OldManOnFire Extraterrestrial Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: California Posts: 1,633 My Mood: Thanks: 4 Thanked 42 Times in 35 Posts	QUOTE=DRS112;190026 What I do like is the hybrid stuff they do....there's a program called blackboard. Basically it is your own web page with your classes on it. You can view your grades, links to supplement material, due dates and the teacher can post other material related to class. Also, it makes it easier for students to interact with eachother or their teachers outside of the classroom...there is discussion areas and email capabilities...[/quote] What you mention is a great step. I'd like to see a hybrid of teachers and computers in say 4th through 12th grades. In many classes there can be a combination of maybe one weekly classroom study and interaction with other studies of the same subject done on the computer anytime during that week. There are surely lots of ideas how to marry computers with teaching but like most things it will probably take decades to implement this. __________________ Did you know both our problems and the solutions can be found simply by looking in our mirrors...and...Never confuse the extraordinary stuff I think and write with that of a well-balanced person...
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