DanS.

Even not profit it's just like the military industrial complex. It's big money for friends of politicians and for the govt. itself. Govt. gets to exert more control take in more tax revenus and earn votes by pandering to whatever interest group(the union for instance)


Yes...I agree that a college degree is needed. No way should a high school diploma suffice. There are so many issues that pertain to their position(just like criminal justice is to law enforcement) that the state cannot afford to forego such requirements.

Denie

Yeah...what a silly request to to require some psychology expertise when dealing with a largely psychological problem.

As we all know, high pay with no educational requirement always attracts the best people to deal with a social/society problem.

This make as much sense as using "low bidder" for our airport security.

jowey

Some jobs do not require a degree, what they do require is effective/functional oversight by those who do have the knowledge to address the issues. Individuals that are competent enough to make the hard calls, such as firing and reprimanding those that overstep their bounds - not covering up or overlooking incidents.

Education does not deter "abuse of power" - 'The Human Behavior Experiments': What Can Be Done in the Name of Obedience. Enforcement of consequences would, a dog must know who its master is. These professions are not a democracy, they are totalitarian, requiring that orders be followed at all levels of its bureaucracy.

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DanS.

I know some jobs don't require a degree. But that one does require at at least something beyond a high school diploma....Denie summed it up well.

jowey

Granted one should take responsibility to "learning" the profession they choose, or the employment they find themselves in.

An education does not make one less likely to commit abuses, in fact it can make them better at the abuses. Let's take our favorite people, the Nazi's, very well educated, well credentialed. What would have stopped these individuals from accomplishing what they did. It would not be more education, imagine if they had access to the toys we have now, in control of the genetic technologies, master race, viruses.....

Now what would stop such a population from accomplishing their objectives, it would not be more education. The controls would be from social oversight, a population with the internal fortitude and the power to say "no", that this is not the direction that they want the society to go. If individuals with "master race" ideas appear, rather than being promoted they should be sent on fast tracks to nowhere - or worse. This is what oversight, performance reviews are supposed to identify.

The personalities that would "thrive" in confrontational environments, such as "law enforcement" or the "military" are aggressive personalities - this is not bad, you want someone that can face down the "bad guy", you also want one that is on your side. The reason these industries have hierarchal structure is to maintain control of these personalities. The officer oversees the enlisted, the officer can execute punishment to maintain control. The officer is accountable for their actions and those that they lead. When those that the officers lead commit abuses, disobey orders they disrespect the "law" of the institution, the officer in charge and their brothers in arms. The implementation that is currently being executed is one that ignores or covers up abuses and as such does a disservice to society and is a reflection on the institution. Another example are the abuses that are being committed in our names, these are a reflection on us and I do assume that we do have an educated population in this country - I may be wrong......

We can cite the Miligram experiments that seem to indicate that there is a tendency for nearly anyone to commit abuses, including an educated individual.

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Quirkygal

Please cite one credible source that states how teachers (as a whole, not a "bad apple" scenario) are to blame for crimes committed by former students!!

Once they're out the door, it's up to the police officers to keep them in line! (That's a JOKE.)

Teachers do not face the daily dangers that a prison guard may have to deal with, nor do they have to lug around heavy gear. There are, however, countless teachers who work in dangerous schools all over this country. They have NO protection. (Ok, exclude the Texans in that one district... )

Don't forget that even in suburbia there is the constant threat of a Columbine-style event.

Could you:

1. Be knowledgeable in every elementary content area?
2. Meet mandates set by politicians—including standardized testing, student data collection, and continual professional development requirements?
3. Adapt and modify educational programs daily based on individual student needs?
4. Assume daily responsibility for students’ emotional and physical well-being?
5. Help every child meet state and federal standards through remediation, intervention, and extra planning?
6. Maintain contact with students and their families outside the school day—while constantly remaining professional?
7. Assume responsibility for dozens of students at a time?
8. Work with little direct supervision?
9. Interpret school district policy and exercise timely independent judgment in a variety of situations?
10. Work outside the regularly scheduled day—during evenings, weekends, and school vacations?

That's just a start!

(source) NEA: NEA Today October 2004

Teaching is a highly skilled, demanding position with many requirements. Teachers deserve more pay, period.

2-3 times more would be realistic.

Minimum CA Requirements:

http://www.ctc.ca.gov/credentials/leaflets/cl561c.pdf

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julia

Here's an article I saw on the Ca Correctional Peace Officers Association:

Union behind the recall pounds its foes


Matthew Yi, Chronicle Sacramento Bureau
Sunday, September 14, 2008


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(09-14) 04:00 PDT Sacramento --
The well-funded state prison guards union that wants to recall Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is a longtime power broker at the state Capitol that has earned a reputation of using a take-no-prisoners approach to wielding its political influence.



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The California Correctional Peace Officers Association, which has millions of dollars in its campaign committees' coffers, has donated generously to many politicians, including past governors. But it also has used its deep pockets to unseat state lawmakers and local officials.
Assemblyman Phil Wyman, R-Tehachapi (Kern County), was one of the unlucky ones, losing re-election in 2002 after the union spent more than $200,000 to defeat him. Wyman had supported private prisons, which the union opposed because its members couldn't work in them.
In 1998, after Kings County District Attorney Greg Strickland convened a grand jury probe into allegations that Corcoran State Prison guards beat 36 inmates, the union spent $30,000 to suggest to voters that he was soft on crime. Strickland lost a re-election campaign.
"I think they're powerful in that people really fear them ... and they haven't been shy about using their resources," said Joshua Page, an assistant professor of sociology at the University of Minnesota who is writing a book titled, "The 'Toughest Beat': Politics, Punishment and the Prison Officers' Union in California."
The union is taking part in the same rough-and-tumble politics as other interest groups that participate in Sacramento, said Lance Corcoran, a union spokesman.
"All we're doing is the same thing that trial lawyers, oil companies, insurance companies and teachers are doing. All we're doing is to play on the same field. But because we're prison guards, it's controversial," he said.
Recall a ploy to get a pact?

But the union, which came to prominence during the state's tough-on-crime, prison-building boom in the 1980s and 1990s, is attempting to take on perhaps its biggest political challenge. Last week, it launched an effort to remove Schwarzenegger, who swept into office five years ago when then-Gov. Gray Davis was recalled amid a state fiscal crisis similar to the one Schwarzenegger faces.
Schwarzenegger has been dogged by a record-long budget impasse, unable to broker a deal to close the $17.2 billion spending gap. The union filed notice of an intent to recall Schwarzenegger, charging that the governor's "catastrophic leadership failings and inept management" have left California in far worse shape than before his election.
The governor's office responded by accusing the union of trying to intimidate Schwarzenegger into negotiating a long-term labor contract for the union. The prison guards have been working without a contract since the last one expired in 2006, and there has been an impasse in negotiations for nearly a year.
Meanwhile, the union's leadership is facing challenges of its own. Fifteen candidates are vying for the union's presidency at its annual convention this week in Las Vegas. Contested elections for the union's top post are rare; the last one was in 1994.
President Mike Jimenez is only the union's second boss. In 2002, he replaced union patriarch Don Novey, who had been president since the union was formed in 1982.
The contested election this year is evidence that the rank-and-file are not happy about the leadership, said Dan Rafferty, president of the Sacramento chapter and one of Jimenez's challengers.
"The current leadership has lost a lot of prominence and progress made by Don Novey in the past 25 years," he said, adding that much of the rancor stems from Jimenez's inability to negotiate a new long-term labor contract.
Many members in his chapter disagree with the recall, Rafferty said. "Members say that it's not doable," he said, calling the recall effort the "latest embarrassment to our organization."
Social group to labor union

The state's prison guards formed the California Correctional Officers Association in 1957, mainly as a social organization, Page said. The group became politically active in the 1970s and in 1982 formally organized as a labor union, adding the word "peace" to its name.
In the next two decades, the union grew into prominence as California's prison system expanded rapidly to reflect crackdowns on crime that included ballot initiatives such as the three- strikes measure that voters approved in 1994. The union gave more than $100,000 to the campaign for the measure.
Novey aligned his fledgling union with crime-victim groups, giving his organization a sympathetic ear at the Capitol. The union now boasts about 31,000 members - including parole officers, prison guards and inmate counselors - who pay $79 a month in dues to fund the union's half-dozen political action committees.
According to state records, those campaign committees have more than $4.4 million on hand, making the union one of the most generous donors to state lawmakers.
Since the beginning of 2007, the union has contributed more than $500,000 to the campaigns of 98 out of 120 sitting state lawmakers, as well to as Lt. Gov. John Garamendi, Controller John Chiang and Attorney General Jerry Brown.
"They have a lock on the Legislature. ... They have far too much influence on that institution," said Rep. Jackie Speier, a former state senator. She added that the union has a penchant for using its deep pockets to unseat legislators such as Wyman in 2002.
"They telegraph loud and clear: 'If you cross us, we'll take you out.' So, no one crosses them," Speier said.
But former state Senate leader John Burton of San Francisco said the prison guards' union is like any other special-interest group that lobbies lawmakers and the governor.
"I do not think they've got any more clout than anybody else," he said. "They're a union, and their job is to look out for their members."
The union has also succeeded in elevating the pay and stature of its members, Burton said. California's prison guards were the nation's best-paid last year, earning an average of $62,000 compared with the national average of about $40,000, according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
"At one time, they were poorly trained, poorly paid law enforcement officials," he said. "And over the years, they've become highly trained, highly paid ... and they are professionals."
E-mail Matthew Yi at myi@sfchronicle.com.
This article appeared on page A - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle

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Heretic

Hilariously ironic.

What should frighten anyone in an alledgedly "free society" is when the jailers become power brokers.

At first you'd think this ws the one case where the union has too much power, but when they're not listening to their own members something stinks deep.

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MarkMiller

I'll site sources when you do for your original claims that CPO should have a degree because they make so much more money than a teacher.

Sorry....but teachers ARE the problem. They turn out thugs everyday. If they want more pay.....they should start educating the children of this country or.....there's always the Prison system. They are looking for people all the time. I hear it pays well also.

No, the whole comparison is just way off. One has nothing to do with the other. So, CPO make more than teachers.....OK, so what? So do millions of other less educated people.

Before Corrections makes that requirement....we need to start with the Police first. Do they require a college education? My sister who runs her department with one other person.....didn't have a college degree.

The problem here with nearly every responce to this is so far very much stating that all "Prison Gaurds" are worthless. Fine. RELEASE THE PRISONERS. Hey Charles Manson....guess what....

Quirkygal

People make their own damn choices. If someone commits a crime they should go to prison. It's called personal responsibility!

Teachers do not turn out thugs. You're being irrational.

About 85 percent of inmates are substance abusers. Should teachers be blamed for that as well? Oh, wait, maybe that's the fault of their pediatrician!!

Notice the absence of a certain word... parents????



Some who teach are bad apples, but by and large teachers do a great job. It's the system that needs to be changed.

I commented that guards don't need degrees of any sort. Show me where I said, "They need to have degrees." There is a huge disparity between the level of training that is required and there is no denying that!!

I simply stated that they are NOT highly trained for the money they make.

The two professions are apples and oranges, but the fact that society values "locking them up" rather than educating them is beyond me.

I clearly stated this in an earlier post.

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~ Barack Obama