Originally Posted by zimmy61

Once WMDs and all the other 'valid' reasons to go to war were proved to be utter bullshit, wasn't Saddam's oppressive and archaic treatment of his people one of the major fallback excuses for toppling the non-democratic Iraqi government? I'm sure that rape rooms and torture were among the elements listed in his State of the Union address. Not a peep from the White House however about the Saudis' state sponsored torture or the oppression and murder of women who foolishly 'allow' themselves to get raped? That's quite a shining beacon on the hill.

Originally Posted by zimmy61

Once WMDs and all the other 'valid' reasons to go to war were proved to be utter bullshit, wasn't Saddam's oppressive and archaic treatment of his people one of the major fallback excuses for toppling the non-democratic Iraqi government? I'm sure that rape rooms and torture were among the elements listed in his State of the Union address. Not a peep from the White House however about the Saudis' state sponsored torture or the oppression and murder of women who foolishly 'allow' themselves to get raped? That's quite a shining beacon on the hill.

Originally Posted by The_Heretic

i wonder what our allies- our real allies, think about us propping up those medieval pieces of shit.

Originally Posted by zimmy61

Once WMDs and all the other 'valid' reasons to go to war were proved to be utter bullshit, wasn't Saddam's oppressive and archaic treatment of his people one of the major fallback excuses for toppling the non-democratic Iraqi government? I'm sure that rape rooms and torture were among the elements listed in his State of the Union address. Not a peep from the White House however about the Saudis' state sponsored torture or the oppression and murder of women who foolishly 'allow' themselves to get raped? That's quite a shining beacon on the hill.

Originally Posted by zimmy61

Define real allies. From what I understand all countries cease to qualify as U.S. allies the moment they fail to sufficiently contribute to 'American interests'. I mean Canada's relationship was on pretty shaky ground just 4 short years ago when we failed to live up to our "obligations" in Iraq.

Originally Posted by The_Heretic

What I mean is an ally not afraid to tell us we're fucking up. An ally who lets us fall- much as it might hurt them to see it, but because they know we much need the correction to a more grounded and realistic self image.

Originally Posted by zimmy61

I understand what you're getting at but I honestly don't think that you've got any 'allies' left who'll feel legitimately hurt to see you fall. If the traditional American allies have learned anything over the past 7 years, it's that the U.S. considers them all expendible given the right circumstances. One doesn't have to think much further back than 'old Europe' or 'freedom fries' to get the picture. The tough love theory doesn't really work without the love component and I'm afraid that part was squandered a long time ago.

Originally Posted by zimmy61

I understand what you're getting at but I honestly don't think that you've got any 'allies' left who'll feel legitimately hurt to see you fall. If the traditional American allies have learned anything over the past 7 years, it's that the U.S. considers them all expendible given the right circumstances. One doesn't have to think much further back than 'old Europe' or 'freedom fries' to get the picture. The tough love theory doesn't really work without the love component and I'm afraid that part was squandered a long time ago.

Originally Posted by The_Heretic

I think they understand that the whole of the U.S. isn't like that. But the pattern of having the inmates run the asylum seems will continue in U.S. government.

Originally Posted by zimmy61

Naturally the sentiment isn't a personal one. It has everything to do with government foreign policy. As I was saying, the alliances have nothing to do with a feeling of warm friendship and everything to do with political relationships based on convenience and/or usefulness. For instance, Canada will root for the success of U.S. in so far as our economies and interests are so closely intertwined. However we're currently taking steps to diversify away those ties. European countries with less of a direct stake are relatively less effected and their level of concern will be a proportionate one. My personal disdain for American foreign policy and it's effect on the stability of the world has never been confused with my feelings for the people (many of which are relatives) themselves living on the other side of the border.

Originally Posted by The_Heretic

No, i didn't think you'd disdain the people. But yeah, I think it's correct to treat the U.S. like another rogue state at this point.