Obama wants to expand faith-based programs - Page 5

mentor · 07-03-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheapseats

Minister of Beliefs, anyone?

More government largesse to poor people and less to the defense, oil, telecommunication, insurance and legal industries? You bet. But we have ALL KINDS of government relief agencies that we can fund, if we've decided we're about helping people. Too, there is the matter of shitty shitty shitty public schools.

If a church cannot afford this or that, they can't afford it...go without or use a credit card, like the rest of us.

I want to be a Giver, alas, I have nothing to give. But it is Good to Give, so I prevail upon you to give me the goods, so I can turn around and be Good by giving it away?

Note the extra step in there, and imagine the attendant paperwork. For what? So the churches can act as Good Guy Middle Men on the taxpayer's dime?

Always the asshole in the middle, hoping you won't notice he's there!

Comicsartist · 07-03-2008, 11:27 AM

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Separation of church and state deals with no religious test, which according to Obama's version of faith based initiatives, there is no religious test. No hiring or firing based on religious beliefs.

Also, he said he would fund charities be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish or secular. His plan does not include approving one religion over another.

How is his plan, if it's carried out the way he says it will be, mucking up the separation?

gonzo · 07-03-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comicsartist

Also, he said he would fund charities be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish or secular. His plan does not include approving one religion over another.

Oooo, I should start a pagan charity should he be elected. It could get interesting.

Comicsartist · 07-03-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzo

Oooo, I should start a pagan charity should he be elected. It could get interesting.

If Obama stays true to what I've heard so far, and your pagan charity helps the community, do it.

Pagans for Prosperity?

Ptech · 07-03-2008, 01:22 PM

CA

The govt should be strictly NEUTRAL on religious matters: that is the moral of the story as to the First Amendment and the last sentence of Article VI

Having a WH office of religion is hardly being neutral. Leave it to the churches. Why must the govt be involved? Because it "feels" good?

There is no rational reason for it, and as other posters have mentioned here, it leaves the door wide open for abuse.

Has the church no function in our society? Why must the govt do the church's business?

Comicsartist · 07-03-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ptech

CA

The govt should be strictly NEUTRAL on religious matters: that is the moral of the story as to the First Amendment and the last sentence of Article VI

Having a WH office of religion is hardly being neutral. Leave it to the churches. Why must the govt be involved? Because it "feels" good?

There is no rational reason for it, and as other posters have mentioned here, it leaves the door wide open for abuse.

Has the church no function in our society? Why must the govt do the church's business?

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Dubya's Faith Based Initiatives plan skirted with allowing hiring/firing based on religious affiliation. HE was guilty of muddying the line between church and state. Obama's plan says no one will be hired or fired based on religion. What Obama is saying is if you run a Christian organization/charity, you are not allowed to not hire someone because they are Muslim or secular in their beliefs/lack there-of.

No religious test.

I'm unaware of there being a religious office in the WH, outside of the religious 'right', which once again, is there because of Dubya. If I'm incorrect, I fully expect to be corrected.

I think charities and organizations of all faiths and secular origins should be funded IF they put people first. If you are out there trying to better the community, trying to put hearts and minds at ease in this ever increasingly hostile world, you should be funded. As we speak millions of Americans are without jobs, their mortgages are fucking them over, their bills are piling up, and many, many people are unable to donate. THIS is when the government should step in, if you ask me. The programs that truly do help people during tough times should have money coming in so they can continue to help.

Remember, Obama said he is for funding charities and organizations of all religious backgrounds, as well as secular, non-religious ones. Giving no government money to the programs would be neutral, yes, but so would spreading the funding out equally. By allotting the same amount of dollars to each charity/organization, he is not putting one above the other, and therefore, we can still view it as being neutral.

Ptech · 07-03-2008, 03:48 PM

Obama is PROPOSING to have a FBI, pardon the pun, in his administration.

Bush already has one, and the guy who ran it was on 60 Minutes. Ended up being a bunch of bad blood bullshit that wasted tax dollars and embarassed americans. Not to mention pissed on the document.

gonzo · 07-03-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comicsartist

If Obama stays true to what I've heard so far, and your pagan charity helps the community, do it.

Pagans for Prosperity?

Now remember...

I live deep in the Bible Belt of Ga. Just coming out of the broom closet here is something I've put off for two years, lol! I actually had one older AA gentleman tell me he saw the devil walking behind me in my footsteps after I politely refused an invite to his church.

I could start a pagan charity, but I'll warrant I'd be the sole member.

CosmicRocker · 07-03-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzo

Oooo, I should start a pagan charity should he be elected. It could get interesting.

Bow

to the Great Ganga God.

Comicsartist · 07-03-2008, 09:47 PM

Quote:

NBC Nightly News reported, "Obama said he's made the connection between public service and religion in his own life. He said it makes sense for faith based organizations to help, because, as the argument goes, they know the people who are hurting and where to find them."

The Los Angeles Times reports, "Mollifying some critics in his party, Obama distanced himself from some controversial aspects of the Bush program." He "signaled he would not fund church groups that make hiring decisions based on an applicant's religion and would make sure federal money was not used to proselytize. He also echoed critiques from two ex-officials of Bush's Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives who had charged that it was exploited for partisan purposes -- to build GOP support in battleground states -- and served as a convenient 'photo-op.'"

USNews.com: Political Bulletin: Wednesday, July 2, 2008

I repeat, Obama is not lifting one brand of religion over another. If he can carry his plan out the way it is laid out at present, the separation of church and state will still be upheld.

Also, it reads like Obama is aware of Dubya's mismanagement and is trying to carry his FBI out in a way that will actually work.

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