nroberts

Well, see...that sounds like an invitation to a challenge. You've basically just attacked MY system of belief and said it is not satisfying. This is ok, I'm not offended by this. However, the best way to decide which is satisfying and which is not is to compare them. I'll also add that your statements throughout indicate that you've not considered, completely, the alternative that science provides. In science, there's no separation between matter and spirit...

Comicsartist

Does science say there is life after death? If the answer is "no", my hope will remain in Christianity. Where are you reading attacks? I said it isn't satisfying TO ME. I didn't say science is wrong. You also seem to have an unhealthy fixation on comparing personal beliefs to personal beliefs. I am comfortable with my beliefs, and if you aren't comfortable with yours, talk to someone better equipped to help you out. You also left out my reasons for believing in Jesus. I did explain them, you know.

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disfigured

Science Debate aside (since I didn't read most of the thread).

If your interested in myth and it's influence on the human species, this guy literally wrote the book on it. Several in fact. His series with Bill Moyers is a must see.

He has a well informed, very logical, but not condescending view on myths, religions, heroes and the like.

Joseph Campbell Foundation

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nroberts

Back on the defensive again. Ok. It's clear that real communication is impossible. You make a lot of assumptions that I'd like to clear out but that can't be done because you still won't say how your religion answers the WHY question. I'm kind of left wondering if it really does.

That said, to answer your direct question: It is pretty clear that since our brains are where our souls are, what implements them and makes them possible, when our brains cease to function we cease to be. For many this is a scary prospect, myself included for much time, but it really doesn't change anything about the worth of life; in fact, it tells us to get as much out of it as we can. As Pink Floyd says, "I have always been here; I have always looked out from behind these two eyes." Eternity for me is the time from my birth, to the time of my death. That is all the time I have.

Furthermore, the alternative has some problems. For one thing, why does living forever make your life worth more? Why is it more satisfying? For me I would simply prefer to live longer, in a perfect body, so I can experience all of creation...but what then? It's sad that I won't travel to the stars, especially since we could do it right now, and that Carl Sagan will never get that opportunity either; I can think of nobody more deserving. But he won't, and he knew it, and he didn't wait...he gathered as much knowledge as he could and spread it as best he could and his imagination was unbounded. I for one think the concept of eternal life robs you of this.

Besides, just regarding our ability to know leads one to default to death...real death. If I'm going to die in a few decades I need to live what I can, and do what I can, in that time. If I'm going to live forever all that living can wait...it will be better later anyway.

Furthermore, the forever concept is an illusion; it doesn't work. I'll explain. What is the promise? That you'll be resurected in perfect form and live for eternity in paradise, correct? What is this perfect form and how does it relate to your current form? Consider, in your current form you are full of "sin", correct? This means that you are tempted by things and that these temptations will be removed in this later form (since you'll be "without sin"). Ok, you've never been without sin...even a child, innocent as they are, sins. Consider the jokes you tell, the things you find humorous, the movies you like to watch...full of sin, right? The truth is that just this one thing, removing sin, will alter you to such an extent that you will simply not be you anymore.

But what if sin remains. What is paradise? A place where you'll live in perfect happiness, right? Now consider the various forms that people believe paradise is going to come in. Consider the terrorists' promise of 77 virgins. Here you are with 77 virgins for all eternity. Do they remain virgins? For how long? Say they don't...you actually get to make use of this. Where did they come from, are they real people? Is it going to be fun for them? What if they aren't real, what kind of relationship is that? Seems like an eternity like this would only be really fun for a few decades at best and then you've got forever to live in it.

The same can be said of any "paradise" but let's assume just for a moment that it is possible to keep you perfectly happy for all of eternity...you never get bored, you're never unhappy, you never suffer a single want. Now, how many people do you think are in there with you? I'll tell you: none. It is impossible to keep two different spirits completely happy with the same environment. So there you are, all by yourself, forever. Do you think this will make you happy? It wouldn't me...therfor the original setup is impossible from the start, for something can't be both done and impossible to create.

So lets reintroduce suffering into the world. You're going to be bored at times. You're going to disagree with others in your world. You're going to live, in a world much like this one, forever. I mean, this world is great and all, but I don't know that I've got the stanima to suffer to the extent that we suffer here...for all eternity. There are things that just eat at a person and it isn't just the rapes and murders, which could be removed without too much ill effect for the "good" people just by eliminating the "bad". Some has simply to do with my dispair for the choices that the human race makes...the things that are valued and the illusions we allow to devour our lives. I can't take an eternity of that.

Furthermore, I don't think I can live with myself for that long either. There are things about myself I don't particularly like. In the short time I have I can deal with them, put them out of my mind, and live a fairly fulfilled and happy life. An eternity of my demons eating at my soul though??? God, I hope not!

So I think we have all the time we can handle and I think we need to make the best of it. If there's more, and there's something so great I can't possibly imagine it (because I can't ... and I just illustrated why), then I'll welcome it because I love living. But I'm not going to *expect* it and I don't think anyone should. I think the concept of continued existence and eternal bliss is the best strategic move for controlling the populace that ever was invented. If I want someone to go die following my orders what do I do...convince them that they'll actually live forever and be rewarded for dying in my cause. Then there's nothing that can stop them.

And then there's some concepts of "paradise" that I just find revolting. As Hitchens states, you live in a world where your every move is watched and all you get to do is kneel and worship a divine tyrant who opposes all liberty. When an atheist dies that's it...they're dead. When a Christian dies...heh, they haven't even STARTED with you yet. Of course, there's no different path for the atheist vs. the Christian since one is true or the other...but he's illustrating an important point I think. We have to ask ourselves if living under the rule of God is really what we want...for he promises an eternity to do it....if you don't like it...eek.

nroberts

I also want to discuss this WHY you say religion offers that science doesn't. You won't say what it is so I'll have to guess, but I think I can guess fairly accurately having once been a Christian.

You don't know. You believe in God, you believe he has a purpose for you, but you have no idea what it is. So your answer to WHY is just that...because God wanted you here. But we can't step through that. If we ask WHY, "Why did God want me here?" all we can do is speculate, and we speculate based on little input.

Some people think it's to learn...learn what? Well, if I knew then I wouldn't be here learning it...

Some people think it's to be tested. Tested for what? Sin. Why? Cause that's what God wants...shit...stuck again!

At one time I thought maybe we are here simply to learn how to live so that we can handle eternity. I liked that answer for a long time but then I realized that it too is an illusion. Why eternity? Why anything at all? Why does God want me to live in paradise, or in hell, whichever I'm destined for? There's no reason to be had. It's just the will of some super-agent.

At the fundamental level we are stuck with, "Because that's what God wants." Ok, but WHY does he want that? This is the question that religion may TRY to answer, but never can. It's actually a fundamental problem in religion that it CLAIMS to answer these questions. These questions HAVE NO ANSWER. Even if they did, you can just ask, "Why God? Why not nothing?" Religion answers this question by telling you that it's blasphemous to ask...or at best to just say, "God always was."

My mother actually had the best answer I ever heard to that question. I asked her if God ever wonders why he's alive and not not-alive. She said, "No, because God understands that life is necessary and that it's existence is permanent." Of course, she was just making it all up...which I wish we adults wouldn't do but religion does so so very, very much. Furthermore the answer deletes the necessity of God. God doesn't need to create life since life is, always was, and always was going to be.

This is why religion FAILS to answer the why question. It just makes shit up and feeds it to us. Some people are happy with the answers it provides, but they are all illusionary. This is why many, many religions discourage you from looking...because once you look, it goes away. It all falls appart.

So, how does science answer WHY? By telling us HOW. It hasn't done so completely yet, but there is much promise. By looking at how, we can discover that at the fundamental level the answer to WHY is probably quite simple, and my mother was right: it was inevitable. WHY? Because when you allow an eternity of stuff spilling around, some day the nearly impossible WILL happen. Because, though the ways to not be vastly outnumber the ways to be...and the odds of anything being are astronomically low...forever is infinitely long and thus everything possible will someday happen.

Where is purpose? Religion tells you that there's an agent somewhere, in the sky, outside the universe, permeating creation...it doesn't matter. This agent GIVES you a purpose...but he doesn't tell you what it is. Why? Perhaps you might say he gives us this data in the form of the Bible, but is it complete? Do you know what you are to do here, in a real sense and not some vague, "Follow the rules and live the good life," or something like that? Not from the Bible. So where is purpose? Why would God NOT tell you? Because your purpose is YOURS of course! So religion and science give the same answer.

If God really did give us purpose I would be incredibly unhappy. It would mean I am nothing...a tool. I have no will of my own, I cannot change ANYTHING even about myself! I am stuck. I should never have existed. It would have been better if I hadn't been. To be created with a desire to will what I want, as a tool to perform the deeds of some super-agent...is a torture I can't fathom. We do it to robots, but robots don't have sentience...yet. God created a race of slaves is what it says when we say God gives us our purpose. Worse than that...there's nothing for us to do outside the petri-dish he placed us in. We are God's playthings; his purpose is meaningless. It's not right, it's not moral, it's not possible that a benevolent God did this.

Of course, if God is a tyrant and created us to be slaves, it would follow that he'd make it so we'd be happier following his "rules". Then again, a tyrant capable of doing this to begin with is a bit of a saddist. He might introduce "sin" just to fuck with us.

Comicsartist

You're not trying to discuss anything. You are trying to argue. You type all that yet say nothing at all. You claim I am the one being defensive, but you still haven't told me why I need to explain my beliefs to you. I don't, for one, feel the need to try and help you solve the God mystery mainly because, like I stated before, you already have your opinion. And my answers would be nothing more than opinion. You seem to like putting words in other people's mouths, and judging from your previous post, you claim you know religion is definitively wrong. So, again, tell me why I should waste my time trying to explain myself to you? We are back at square one. You simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. You entered into whatever type of conversation this is with your mind already set. Like I said before, I am comfortable with my beliefs. I couldn't care less if you are comfortable with my beliefs. I seem to have to repeat this a lot, maybe you don't want to hear it but too bad. They are my beliefs. Get over yourself and move on.

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