Heretic

I'm refering to the origins of nucleic acid chains. The replication of DNA is amazingly easy. A strand is warmed to the point where hydrogen bonds linking them into a double helix break down. When it's cooled down randomly floating deoxyrhibonucleic acids bases attach to their corrisponding opposites, A's to T' and C' to G's, thus leaving two strands of matching DNA. If it all cycled through, there'd next be four, then eight, then six...

PCR machines [polymerase chain reaction] do this in order to replicate DNA from samples in order to create a larger sample for testing. Crime labs, among others, use this. Edition: This includes the polymerase enzyme.

It's true to a point. It creates order in concentration at the expense of greater disorder outside it. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

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Malkavian

I don't think life started with DNA, in fact, i think that's impossible - DNA is a fairly stable polymer (mutations aside for a second). And yes, you do need polymerase enzyme to replicate, and that looks pretty complicated.

The odds are, first life used RNA rather than DNA. It is a self catalyzing molecule , so you don't need protein complex to direct reactions, and the best part is - it's half life is on the order of minutes (for bacteria, hours for humans). That way, once you get a few nucleotides, you'll never run out of raw materials for recombination.

It was probably followed by a DNA-RNA hybrid that occurred by mistake, and next thing you know, we have apes sitting around arguing about if

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Environment Man

Look at the complexity you are discussing. And you think chance put that together in a rational functioning life form of any kind. If you cannot specifically and scientifically explain how it happened then more than likely it did not happen.

LeisureChrist

While you argue that such comlexity comes from God when God would not need complexity to make kife happen. All-powerful, remember? If it was God, he could just make life work, without any mechanisms that we can divine (pardon the pun). And since that would be simpler, Occam's Razor says it should be that way.

Malkavian

Hmm? Chance? Not chance. Applicable laws of physics and chemistry. And i dislike the word "complexity" when it comes to natural phenomena (even though i did use it above ). It has a sneaky little assumption that says Universe was designed for human mind to understand. Things just are. Whether or not they are easy or hard for us, tough luck. Universe doesn't care one way or the other.

EDIT: for somebody so much interested in hydrolysis, you should be the one touting RNA's self catalyzing functions

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Environment Man

But the RNA structure HAS to come from somewhere and your ilk postulate that is self designed and constructed and then magically led to DNA. Sounds like voodoo throwing of the bones to me.

You say "Things just are." We call that chance. You reject chance but then say that chance designed and built. YOU sound confused. Fortunately I am not confused and would be happy to instruct you as to EXACTLY how things occurred.

Malkavian

Hmm? I said RNA structure is defined by laws of physics and chemistry. It is "self designed and constructed" in pretty much the same way every other molecule is - through chemical reaction. If you think you need to be God to run chemical reactions, bow to me, because that's what i do for a living. Granted, mostly unsuccessful, but i chalk it up to evolution And if you wanna throw bones at me, make sure they have steak on them - you can't go wrong with steak

"Things just are" is different from chance, at least, the way i view it. Chance implies a desirability of certain outcome, like me winning a lottery. "Things just are" acknowledges the existence of a lottery, but makes no claims about winning or losing numbers. Life could exist, or it could not, it doesn't make a difference from a universal point of view.

For all i know, universe could have been designed by super intelligent mice for use as a computer simulation, but since those mice would have to exist outside the known space time, and we have no way of looking there, it's kinda pointless to worry about it. As it is, one thing that amuses me about Intelligent Design proponents is their fascination with statistics, how impossible it for life to come about in this exact combination because the odds of that combination are very low.

Life is enzyme catalyzed chemical kinetics. All the processes inside of you are chemical in in nature. Every second, there are about a trillion DNA bases that undergo decomposition inside a body or every human (well, adjust for mass) from just one one chemical reaction. Multiply by 6 billion humans. That's a billion trillion changes per second, only in humans, only from one ordinary reaction. Add in all other DNA based life forms, multiply, say by a few centuries, and you'll just start getting the scale of evolution at work.

But wait, that's just the beginning. Inside your head, the neurons communicate via small molecules, neurotransmitters. They are constantly being degraded and re synthesized. Turnover rate for the fastest - 10^15 molecules per second. That's a billion trillion times to begin with. And that's just biological examples. In chemical industry, i've seen catalyst designs that accelerate reaction rates as much as 10^30 times. So... if you wanna talk about chance, keep in mind, i get to roll a lot of times, and i only have to be right once.

To me, it is amazing that life didn't evolve sooner. Actually, if you wanna talk about unsubstantiated beliefs, here's mine - i believe life evolved a short time period after the start of the Universe (just enough for it to cool down) and it did so repeatedly on whatever worlds the conditions allowed, and in whatever forms were the most fitting for those conditions. Now that i'd believe in.

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CosmicRocker

^ extreamely interesting , but way above my pay grade, and expertise - so I won't even try to comment.

But i do have a question.

Knowing that life can devolve from simple chemicals; in the right circumstances,
is it possible that life can be fairly common, at least in simple forms. ( virus, bacteria types ).

And if the simple life forms are given the opportunity to evolve to more complex forms;
that would make the opportuinity for so called advanced life forms to take hold anywhere the right preconditions are met.

Then Earth would be a place where the conditions for evolution were met.
Similarily, there may be more worlds where conditions would allow for intelligent, or complex life forms.

So the chances of intelligent life forms " out there" are pretty good,
as long as there are worlds that will allow the time, and conditions necessary to do so.

Would you then agree that life is potentially in a lot of places,
and the possibility of intelligent life is at least probable??


I hope i was clear. I'm asking if there is a good chance for intelligent life forms in the universe, beside Earth?

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Environment Man

Wrong again Einstein. I do NOT so much make the case that it is a chore for God to make complexity but more to make the case that chance CANNOT make such complex and interdependent systems. God's work is obvious to the nonselfworshipper. It is the one blinded by the bright reflection of his or her mirror that has trouble seeing God in his many many complex works.

Malkavian

One of the mistakes people make when they think evolution, is they assume it's directional (ie towards greater complexity). It may or may not be, depending on the environment. Personally, i think intelligence is overrated. I'd prefer claws. But oh well, i guess brains where all they had in stock.

Too keep it short, yes, i think intelligent life is at least possible. BUT - you have to keep in mind that intelligent critters (based on available evidence) tend to kill each other off with global warming/nuke weapons and other suchlike business. So... they are out there, if they didn't off each other already.

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