Gods & Spirits of Nature.

The_Heretic · 01-04-2008, 07:57 PM

Gaia brought up in another thread the concept of divinity in nature. Many older, so-called "pagan" religions have many gods and goddesses who're highly specialized and narrow in purpose. The god or fire doesn't deal in rain and the god/goddess or fertility isn't in charge of the sun.

Now the monotheists [Jews, Christians and Muslims] tell us that their god is superior because he [always he] controls it all. But he also doesn't take calls too often. Oh, sure the argument is he hears all prayers, but that's like thinking the president answers ever E-mail or letter. And this uber god [yes I lump all three monotheistic religions under the same god, an ironic trinity] isn't as fan as the many "lesser" gods or goddesses of polytheism or paganism [in its various forms].

So why not praise the rising sun itself for its warmth and light?

What's wrong with eraching out to a rain god during a drought?

And who says fairies are more rediculous than angels and elves less realistic than demons?

The gods and spirits of nature seem friendlier to me than some distant executive who isn't depicted as being on the Earth. And while Odin was also an executive sort of god even he was much closer in that he resided in the sky and say through the eyes of all ravens. A conduit one could see, hear and possibly touch.

I'll take a bunch of little nature gods over one big absentee landlord, to borrow an Al Pachino term.

Comicsartist · 01-05-2008, 03:12 AM

Did you ever notice this passage in Genesis 2:22?

Quote:

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

I think (with a nod to Santa's "I believe=I think" thread) this passage gives room to anything, really. I refer once again to Norse religion and Greek religion. Pre Ragnarok, there are many gods and goddesses. Post Ragnarok, there is one great God almighty. Pre Twilight of the Gods, there are many gods and goddesses. Post Twilight of the Gods, there is one Zeus Almighty. When you think about it, the Bible is a collection of tales. Tales that were passed down through oral traditions, sometimes written traditions. The tales originated somewhere. And when you look at the sum total of the religions of the world, they most often parallel each other in many ways. Might have different names for certain things, but a connecting line can be made.

Point being, if there are perhaps hundreds of religions in the world-each one explaining things in their own terms, each one reflecting off another-wouldn't that make the idea of a God more plausible?

I realize I've gone off topic a bit, but your ideas enter in, too, Porcupine. To believe in the highly improbable, is to believe in the highly improbable. Just because something might be out of the human mind's grasp doesn't mean it can't be true. Science might try to disprove something, but (and I have been criticized for saying this before) science is also a man made thing. Science wasn't here just waiting to be found, someone had to come up with the idea of science before it came to be. Granted, it is a system based on peer review, experimentation, and repeat results, but it is still worked out with the human mind. 10% brain usage? What does the other 90% hold? We are human. We are limited. Our knowledge is not endless, our results are not always perfect. There will always be something science cannot explain. Are the thousands upon thousands of people who believe they have seen a ghost wrong? I mean are all of them wrong? Is there no possible way for life to exist beyond death? Is there no possible way for a being with greater faculties than us to exist? Which came first, Hercules or Herculaneum?

What if the folktales are right?

Jonesy · 01-05-2008, 05:11 AM

Science isn't a man-made thing, exactly. Science is merely the study of the world around us (different from art, which can study a different aspect of the world around you). It was man who decided to study such a thing (wisely). The world around us though, was not created by man.

As far as life after death... there are philosophical truths which invalidate the need to know.

Gaia · 01-05-2008, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Heretic

Gaia brought up in another thread the concept of divinity in nature. Many older, so-called "pagan" religions have many gods and goddesses who're highly specialized and narrow in purpose. The god or fire doesn't deal in rain and the god/goddess or fertility isn't in charge of the sun.

Now the monotheists [Jews, Christians and Muslims] tell us that their god is superior because he [always he] controls it all. But he also doesn't take calls too often. Oh, sure the argument is he hears all prayers, but that's like thinking the president answers ever E-mail or letter. And this uber god [yes I lump all three monotheistic religions under the same god, an ironic trinity] isn't as fan as the many "lesser" gods or goddesses of polytheism or paganism [in its various forms].

So why not praise the rising sun itself for its warmth and light?

What's wrong with eraching out to a rain god during a drought?

And who says fairies are more rediculous than angels and elves less realistic than demons?

The gods and spirits of nature seem friendlier to me than some distant executive who isn't depicted as being on the Earth. And while Odin was also an executive sort of god even he was much closer in that he resided in the sky and say through the eyes of all ravens. A conduit one could see, hear and possibly touch.

I'll take a bunch of little nature gods over one big absentee landlord, to borrow an Al Pachino term.

Merry Meet!

I greet the Sun every morning, and the Moon every night, I am in constant touch with the Earth under my feet and I call her Mother. I don't fully understand why everything IS, but I am very happy to be aware of it.

Here is a really good website to research ancient Religions:

http://www.pantheon.org/

To fully (well...that might be overstated a bit, but...) understand (or try to) Monotheism, one has to go back to Zoraster.

This God we are all discusiing HERE, is the God of the Israelites exclusively, no?

I am not Jewish, my Roots are not in the Middle East, my ancient Ancestors had their own Gods, which to this Day, are firmly embedded in their collective memories. Two Days of the Week are devoted to the Norse Gods: Thusday = Thor, Friday = Freya. And Sunday = devoted to the Sun, Monday = devoted to the Moon, Saturday = devoted to Saturn. Tuesday & Wednesday...I don't really know what they mean..?

Faeries are in some form, in many cultural/religious beliefs. Mostly are (not very friendly) Nature Spirits. The reason I say not very friendly, is they don't like Humans (much) because they are not taking care of Mother properly, treat her with utter disregard, and the Fey do not like that.

Angels (in my opinion) are a sort of knock-off/copy of Faeries, made nicer and more user-friendly.

Monotheism completely disregards/ignores, the Sacred Feminine, with that all-powerful Male God with no Mate. It is a Un-Natural Theology. Because on THIS Earth, the Principle of Male AND Female are the natural Foundation of Life.

Merry Part!

...and Merry Meet again....

Gaia · 01-05-2008, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comicsartist

Did you ever notice this passage in Genesis 2:22?

I think (with a nod to Santa's "I believe=I think" thread) this passage gives room to anything, really. I refer once again to Norse religion and Greek religion. Pre Ragnarok, there are many gods and goddesses. Post Ragnarok, there is one great God almighty. Pre Twilight of the Gods, there are many gods and goddesses. Post Twilight of the Gods, there is one Zeus Almighty. When you think about it, the Bible is a collection of tales. Tales that were passed down through oral traditions, sometimes written traditions. The tales originated somewhere. And when you look at the sum total of the religions of the world, they most often parallel each other in many ways. Might have different names for certain things, but a connecting line can be made.

Point being, if there are perhaps hundreds of religions in the world-each one explaining things in their own terms, each one reflecting off another-wouldn't that make the idea of a God more plausible?

I realize I've gone off topic a bit, but your ideas enter in, too, Porcupine. To believe in the highly improbable, is to believe in the highly improbable. Just because something might be out of the human mind's grasp doesn't mean it can't be true. Science might try to disprove something, but (and I have been criticized for saying this before) science is also a man made thing. Science wasn't here just waiting to be found, someone had to come up with the idea of science before it came to be. Granted, it is a system based on peer review, experimentation, and repeat results, but it is still worked out with the human mind. 10% brain usage? What does the other 90% hold? We are human. We are limited. Our knowledge is not endless, our results are not always perfect. There will always be something science cannot explain. Are the thousands upon thousands of people who believe they have seen a ghost wrong? I mean are all of them wrong? Is there no possible way for life to exist beyond death? Is there no possible way for a being with greater faculties than us to exist? Which came first, Hercules or Herculaneum?

What if the folktales are right?

I believe Hercules came first. Zeus tricked Leda by appearing to her in the form of a Swan, and somehow, he got her pregnant and the result was Hercules. I THINK that's how it went? Some of the Greek Gods are really too scary/mean. (in my opinion)

There is a Seed of truth in every Tale/Folktale, it's just the longer it's told/repeated, the more is added/subtracted, changed.

Have a great Saturday Everyone!

Gaia · 01-05-2008, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaia

Merry Meet!

I greet the Sun every morning, and the Moon every night, I am in constant touch with the Earth under my feet and I call her Mother. I don't fully understand why everything IS, but I am very happy to be aware of it.

Here is a really good website to research ancient Religions:

http://www.pantheon.org/

To fully (well...that might be overstated a bit, but...) understand (or try to) Monotheism, one has to go back to Zoraster.

This God we are all discusiing HERE, is the God of the Israelites exclusively, no?

I am not Jewish, my Roots are not in the Middle East, my ancient Ancestors had their own Gods, which to this Day, are firmly embedded in their collective memories. Two Days of the Week are devoted to the Norse Gods: Thusday = Thor, Friday = Freya. And Sunday = devoted to the Sun, Monday = devoted to the Moon, Saturday = devoted to Saturn. Tuesday & Wednesday...I don't really know what they mean..?

Faeries are in some form, in many cultural/religious beliefs. Mostly are (not very friendly) Nature Spirits. The reason I say not very friendly, is they don't like Humans (much) because they are not taking care of Mother properly, treat her with utter disregard, and the Fey do not like that.

Angels (in my opinion) are a sort of knock-off/copy of Faeries, made nicer and more user-friendly.

Monotheism completely disregards/ignores, the Sacred Feminine, with that all-powerful Male God with no Mate. It is a Un-Natural Theology. Because on THIS Earth, the Principle of Male AND Female are the natural Foundation of Life.

Merry Part!

...and Merry Meet again....

Replying to add a PS:

Wednesday might be named after Wodan? Would make sense.

LeisureChrist · 01-05-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaia

Replying to add a PS:

Wednesday might be named after Wodan? Would make sense.

Wednesday is indeed Woden's Day, just as Tuesday is Tiwaz's day (Tiwaz being an older name of Tyr, Norse god of Justice).

Month names are also often associated with old gods:
http://www.pantheon.org/miscellaneou...in_months.html

The_Heretic · 01-05-2008, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comicsartist

Did you ever notice this passage in Genesis 2:22?

I think that too harkins back to Judaism's polytheistic and nature spiritual roots actually. It's not until the influence of Akenaton [Amonhotep III] that you see monotheism take prominence among the ancient Hebrew.

Quote:

I think (with a nod to Santa's "I believe=I think" thread) this passage gives room to anything, really. I refer once again to Norse religion and Greek religion. Pre Ragnarok, there are many gods and goddesses. Post Ragnarok, there is one great God almighty. Pre Twilight of the Gods, there are many gods and goddesses. Post Twilight of the Gods, there is one Zeus Almighty. When you think about it, the Bible is a collection of tales. Tales that were passed down through oral traditions, sometimes written traditions. The tales originated somewhere. And when you look at the sum total of the religions of the world, they most often parallel each other in many ways. Might have different names for certain things, but a connecting line can be made.

What it suggests to me that the reordering of the gods follows the reordering of societies. If you read Jared Diamond's works [Guns Germs & Steel], [
Collapse] you find that complex societies start becoming hierarchal whereas the most basic hunter/gatherer societies tend to be pure democracies in that all decisions are discuss with each member of the small group [usually less than forty].

In tribes [numbering into the low hundreds] you see a "big man" who has influence based on strength of personality but no hereditary title or, possibly, a cheif system that may or may not be handed down the geneology [some American Indian societies appointed their chiefs by a proto-democratic process and those chiefs were more equivalent to ministors/secretaries of a given fuction].

This continues on upto larger societies and requires greater specialization among the leadership, but still is pyramidal in format with a single chief/king or a select few at its pinacle. The theologies which these socieites use to maintain their social structure reflect and reinforce that organization.

So the trend is to whittle down many gods into a few or just one, with any left over being demoted to lesser images and purposes [saints or archangels for instance].

Quote:

Point being, if there are perhaps hundreds of religions in the world-each one explaining things in their own terms, each one reflecting off another-wouldn't that make the idea of a God more plausible?

What's plausible are the psychological themes common to human beings as a species.

Quote:

I realize I've gone off topic a bit, but your ideas enter in, too, Porcupine. To believe in the highly improbable, is to believe in the highly improbable. Just because something might be out of the human mind's grasp doesn't mean it can't be true. Science might try to disprove something, but (and I have been criticized for saying this before) science is also a man made thing. Science wasn't here just waiting to be found, someone had to come up with the idea of science before it came to be. Granted, it is a system based on peer review, experimentation, and repeat results, but it is still worked out with the human mind. 10% brain usage? What does the other 90% hold? We are human. We are limited. Our knowledge is not endless, our results are not always perfect. There will always be something science cannot explain. Are the thousands upon thousands of people who believe they have seen a ghost wrong? I mean are all of them wrong? Is there no possible way for life to exist beyond death? Is there no possible way for a being with greater faculties than us to exist? Which came first, Hercules or Herculaneum?

What if the folktales are right?

Folktales are true in a metaphorical sense, but it's the imagery or representation that has to be translated. Chimpanzees use to be a falktale told by African tribes living near the jungles and dismissed by Europeans until- POOF, there they were. The same is true when Louis and Clark heard stories about a great grizzled and ferocious beast, up until they ran headlong into their first grizzly bear. They shot it four times, it ran them off a cliff into a river and proceded to swm after them. needless to say they listened more closely to folktales after that.

The_Heretic · 01-05-2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaia

Merry Meet!

I greet the Sun every morning, and the Moon every night, I am in constant touch with the Earth under my feet and I call her Mother. I don't fully understand why everything IS, but I am very happy to be aware of it.

Here is a really good website to research ancient Religions:

http://www.pantheon.org/

To fully (well...that might be overstated a bit, but...) understand (or try to) Monotheism, one has to go back to Zoraster.

This God we are all discusiing HERE, is the God of the Israelites exclusively, no?

I am not Jewish, my Roots are not in the Middle East, my ancient Ancestors had their own Gods, which to this Day, are firmly embedded in their collective memories. Two Days of the Week are devoted to the Norse Gods: Thusday = Thor, Friday = Freya. And Sunday = devoted to the Sun, Monday = devoted to the Moon, Saturday = devoted to Saturn. Tuesday & Wednesday...I don't really know what they mean..?

Faeries are in some form, in many cultural/religious beliefs. Mostly are (not very friendly) Nature Spirits. The reason I say not very friendly, is they don't like Humans (much) because they are not taking care of Mother properly, treat her with utter disregard, and the Fey do not like that.

Angels (in my opinion) are a sort of knock-off/copy of Faeries, made nicer and more user-friendly.

Monotheism completely disregards/ignores, the Sacred Feminine, with that all-powerful Male God with no Mate. It is a Un-Natural Theology. Because on THIS Earth, the Principle of Male AND Female are the natural Foundation of Life.

Merry Part!

...and Merry Meet again....

The image of angels, that being a guy with wings, comes from the Greek, where pottery often had the soothsayer [the guy slicing open a chicken to read the entrails] with wings. Plus, there's likely some Egytpian incluence as well, since arcs [the stone tablet carrying variety] have theor origins in
Egypt and chimeric animals on the lid also had wings. Plus, the angels are clearly detatched from or above the Earth while fairies tend to be of/with it.

You're right that leaving the feminine out of theology- or making it subordinate to the masculine, is an imbalance. In one of my novels the aliens have four sexes, and so see everything in tetrachotamies instead of dichotamies, affecting every aspect of their psychology, their creation myths and all else.

gorillamom · 01-05-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Heretic

Gaia brought up in another thread the concept of divinity in nature. Many older, so-called "pagan" religions have many gods and goddesses who're highly specialized and narrow in purpose. The god or fire doesn't deal in rain and the god/goddess or fertility isn't in charge of the sun.

Now the monotheists [Jews, Christians and Muslims] tell us that their god is superior because he [always he] controls it all. But he also doesn't take calls too often. Oh, sure the argument is he hears all prayers, but that's like thinking the president answers ever E-mail or letter. And this uber god [yes I lump all three monotheistic religions under the same god, an ironic trinity] isn't as fan as the many "lesser" gods or goddesses of polytheism or paganism [in its various forms].

So why not praise the rising sun itself for its warmth and light?

What's wrong with eraching out to a rain god during a drought?

And who says fairies are more rediculous than angels and elves less realistic than demons?

The gods and spirits of nature seem friendlier to me than some distant executive who isn't depicted as being on the Earth. And while Odin was also an executive sort of god even he was much closer in that he resided in the sky and say through the eyes of all ravens. A conduit one could see, hear and possibly touch.

I'll take a bunch of little nature gods over one big absentee landlord, to borrow an Al Pachino term.

This is excellent! Very good post. And then it made me think. Did it ever occur to the "one God" religions that maybe it isn't just one God they are praying to, but many and they are so "trained" to think it's only "one God" because someone said so.

01-04-2008, 07:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
The_Heretic Master of Quill-Fu Asteroids Champion! Space Invaders Champion! Yeti Sports 1- Long Shot Version Champion! Pool Jam - 10 Minute Game Champion! Yeti Pentathlon Champion! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Taylorsville, UT [stuck in the 20th century]. Posts: 5,830 Blog Entries: 4 Thanks: 25 Thanked 78 Times in 53 Posts	Gods & Spirits of Nature. Gaia brought up in another thread the concept of divinity in nature. Many older, so-called "pagan" religions have many gods and goddesses who're highly specialized and narrow in purpose. The god or fire doesn't deal in rain and the god/goddess or fertility isn't in charge of the sun. Now the monotheists [Jews, Christians and Muslims] tell us that their god is superior because he [always he] controls it all. But he also doesn't take calls too often. Oh, sure the argument is he hears all prayers, but that's like thinking the president answers ever E-mail or letter. And this uber god [yes I lump all three monotheistic religions under the same god, an ironic trinity] isn't as fan as the many "lesser" gods or goddesses of polytheism or paganism [in its various forms]. So why not praise the rising sun itself for its warmth and light? What's wrong with eraching out to a rain god during a drought? And who says fairies are more rediculous than angels and elves less realistic than demons? The gods and spirits of nature seem friendlier to me than some distant executive who isn't depicted as being on the Earth. And while Odin was also an executive sort of god even he was much closer in that he resided in the sky and say through the eyes of all ravens. A conduit one could see, hear and possibly touch. I'll take a bunch of little nature gods over one big absentee landlord, to borrow an Al Pachino term. __________________ John McCain: "He's in Iraq... with a few centuries to kill."
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