"the ascent of money" pbs program -

[itsmeeeeeee]

this is a great film. watch it here:

Watch full program: THE ASCENT OF MONEY | The Ascent of Money | PBS

[Malkavian]

Great movie, thanks.

[itsmeeeeeee]

share your thoughts on this film here:

i loved this film!


it's obvious that the missing link in our recent economic equation has been "history".

after watching this film, looking back in history, through all of the giant economic man-made catastrophies in the world - (as opposed to ones caused by natural disasters - drought, etc.) - that the warning signs of great economic disasters were usually glaringly obvious, and easily identifiable on some level. and it's notable that the level, the canary in the coalmine, so to speak, is usually the "COMMON MAN" LEVEL, which always senses the disaster first and, unfairly, the most devastatingly.

the culprits of these man-made disasters were, in almost EVERY case, the big movers and shakers in the economic universe at the time - run amok with insatiable and immoral appetites for wealth. life would truly be ideal, and the economic universe would be pretty stable, were it not for the LOVE OF MONEY.

this film proves there REALLY are NO surprises when it comes to economies. (outside of natural disasters/and including those, if you REALLY want to have a realistic risk model.) and it demonstrates that any moral, workable, economic model is incomplete, and almost criminally irresponsible and inadequate, IF IT DOES NOT HEAVILY FACTOR IN THE HUGE, UNDENIALBY STRONG AND HIGHLY PROBABLY, HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED, HUMAN GREED/EVIL/LOVE-OF-MONEY-FUCKS-EVERYTHING-UP-EVERY-TIME ASPECT of any/every REAL economy since the beginning of time...

...and strictly regulate to protect society and the economy, itself, against that factor.

armed with nothing more than a good nose for the smell of greed, anyone with a hint of common sense sees the warning signs clearly and early when something nasty is afoot. you know it when you start to feel that wingtip heel being ground into your shoulder.

i say it's criminal because it's not like the rest of us aren't always along for the ride and subject to the very worst of it.

and i say it's immoral because it's not as IF the whole of society isn't at the very mercy of these evil, profit worshiping bozo's!

unfortunately, overall, this film did nothing to lessen MY intuition that we are teetering on the edge of an economic abyss unlike anything the world has heretofore experienced. ...the next quantum leap in economic disasters, so to speak. ...the global great depression. the great depression version 2.009. a depression to the third power, kinda thingy deal.

i hope to hell i'm wrong.

with instability beginning to rear it's head in china's economy, my fantasy league hedgefund is betting that we're teetering precariously.

i still have hope that if new, better, minds start steering the ship, that if all the stars align, and the heavens take pity, we might, just might, still be able to avert some kind of a economic nuclear winter.

it's not altogether clear to me that this freight train can be stopped at this point.

i'm afraid the political "fear" factor (to which i'm referring to the most-fearbased-vocal-demanding-ignorant-of-historical-fact-voices in the mob) will limit our new leaders' abilities to act in a timely and effective manner. i'm worried that political fear -based opposition to complicated necessary "fixes" will doom us all to topple off that quantum cliff.

[Malkavian]

the culprits of these man-made disasters were, in almost EVERY case, the big movers and shakers in the economic universe at the time - run amok with insatiable and immoral appetites for wealth.

What i took away from the it, was the herd like mentality as a culprit. And as for movers and shakers.... Sure, Ken Lay cooked the books and committed fraud. But aside from scale, how is it any different from subprime borrower lying on application to qualify for NINJA mortgage? They both inflate their assets to get what they want... And as far as scale goes, sure single subprime and Ken Lay are separated by orders of magnitude. But you get a few million subprimes together, and now it's a different story. You could argue that banks should have checked better. That's a fair point, but likewise, the same point could be made for shareholders of Enron...

Everybody likes money, and if they don't have to work for it, even better. Being rich beats being poor every time. And so there are crooks at both ends of the food chain...

[itsmeeeeeee]

What i took away from the it, was the herd like mentality as a culprit. And as for movers and shakers.... Sure, Ken Lay cooked the books and committed fraud. But aside from scale, how is it any different from subprime borrower lying on application to qualify for NINJA mortgage? They both inflate their assets to get what they want... And as far as scale goes, sure single subprime and Ken Lay are separated by orders of magnitude. But you get a few million subprimes together, and now it's a different story. You could argue that banks should have checked better."

and what are banks but the "movers and shakers" of today's economy... or john law in the louisana bubble that took france down, etc. or the mover's and shakers, who created the japanese real estate bubble, or robert merton and myron scholes with their long term capital management equation? were these all NOT man made, greed based money schemes that ignored warning signs in favor of gleaning wealth from trusting victims of varying sophistication - all dreamed up by folks who were in love with money, and didn't care if the greater economy paid a heavy price?

That's a fair point, but likewise, the same point could be made for shareholders of Enron...


yes. but within those schemes/disasters there is still a very bright line. there are the unsuspecting victims who buy into it on one side, and then there are ones who orchestrate the scheme with full knowledge of their actions, awareness of the risks or flaws, and who are more than willing to proceed no moral compass.



Everybody likes money, and if they don't have to work for it, even better. Being rich beats being poor every time. And so there are crooks at both ends of the food chain...

no. just crooks on one end and victims on the other.

[Malkavian]

no. just crooks on one end and victims on the other.

I'm having trouble seeing which end are the victims on. After all, the real victims of subprime crisis were not the borrowers, nor even the banks, they were small towns in Norway, pension funds, Chinese and other Asian governments etc. It was their money that got blown out. Subprimers never had any to begin with, and banks weren't playing with their...

I was reading about John Law yesterday... Turns out, government used his corporation to offload immense amount of debt from their balance sheet. Shares rocketed from 500 livres to like 15,000... Who was buying them? The herd, hoping to get rich . Likewise, with Japanese real estate speculation. Same with subprimers.

They are all small time speculators hoping to get rich without really working for it. Buying shares in Mississippi Company, Japanese real estate, or a house in American suburb without clear understanding of what you are getting into, buying just because it is going up, is not investing. A true investor looks at a company (or property) in microscopic detail, understands the business they are about to invest in, and stick with that business regardless of stock price fluctuations, because they believe in long term success of that enterprise, and it will pay off in the end. Warren Buffet is an example of a true investor.

People who speculate (unless they do it professionally, like Soros or that Griffin guy), are unsuspecting victims, but only to the extent that their ignorance is willful. They do not want to learn, but they still want to play, and this is why they get gutted by the likes of Soros. Financial sector could really use some transparency, but even that will not end speculative games...

[itsmeeeeeee]

I'm having trouble seeing which end are the victims on. After all, the real victims of subprime crisis were not the borrowers, nor even the banks, they were small towns in Norway, pension funds, Chinese and other Asian governments etc. It was their money that got blown out. Subprimers never had any to begin with, and banks weren't playing with their...

I was reading about John Law yesterday... Turns out, government used his corporation to offload immense amount of debt from their balance sheet. Shares rocketed from 500 livres to like 15,000... Who was buying them? The herd, hoping to get rich . Likewise, with Japanese real estate speculation. Same with subprimers.

They are all small time speculators hoping to get rich without really working for it. Buying shares in Mississippi Company, Japanese real estate, or a house in American suburb without clear understanding of what you are getting into, buying just because it is going up, is not investing. A true investor looks at a company (or property) in microscopic detail, understands the business they are about to invest in, and stick with that business regardless of stock price fluctuations, because they believe in long term success of that enterprise, and it will pay off in the end. Warren Buffet is an example of a true investor.

People who speculate (unless they do it professionally, like Soros or that Griffin guy), are unsuspecting victims, but only to the extent that their ignorance is willful. They do not want to learn, but they still want to play, and this is why they get gutted by the likes of Soros. Financial sector could really use some transparency, but even that will not end speculative games...

you don't think people who were baited into buying homes when it was apparent they couldn't sustain those subprime loans they were duped into and lost their homes, etc., (sure they were gullible, or perhaps ignorant, but) - or the people who's retirement, college, and savings accounts were decimated, because worthless subprime loans were enriching folks who knew damn well they were creating a bubble AREN'T victims?


i think the basic premise the film started with - the REALITY that money in any form IS virtually NOTHING MORE THAN A COMMODITY OF TRUST - demonstrates that anyone who trusts their money to creeps who orchestrate any kind of fiscal scam ARE literally victimized. that group does not just include findland villages.

if a security is rated AAA, it has to be AAA. not worthless bullshit.
if it's presented as such when it's, in fact worthless, anyone who invests in it is victimized. period.

[Malkavian]

you don't think people who were baited into buying homes when it was apparent they couldn't sustain those subprime loans they were duped into and lost their homes, etc., (sure they were gullible, or perhaps ignorant, but) - or the people who's retirement, college, and savings accounts were decimated, because worthless subprime loans were enriching folks who knew damn well they were creating a bubble AREN'T victims?

I did say pension plans. So retirement accounts, yes, they got screwed. People who were baited into buying homes they could not afford... How are they victims? They put nothing down, they used rising property values as their personal ATM to enable nice lifestyle, and when the party was over, they foreclosed and walked away, sticking banks with the losses. If this means you are a 'victim', please victimize me all day long! Savings accounts are FDIC insured, so those were fine.

i think the basic premise the film started with - the REALITY that money in any form IS virtually NOTHING MORE THAN A COMMODITY OF TRUST - demonstrates that anyone who trusts their money to creeps who orchestrate any kind of fiscal scam ARE literally victimized. that group does not just include findland villages.

Which is why you should take good care with your money and not get caught up with the speculative boom of the moment...

if a security is rated AAA, it has to be AAA. not worthless bullshit.
if it's presented as such when it's, in fact worthless, anyone who invests in it is victimized. period.

With that i agree. Hence the need for transparency in accounting.

[itsmeeeeeee]

how is losing your home lucky? i mean, you come home, find all your shit on the sidewalk. many of these people were victims because they shouldn't have been OFFERED a loan in the first place - and somehow that's their fault, and not the writer of the mortgage who knows full well that the thing is doomed. not everyone's smart. a lot of these people didn't have a clue as to what they were being baited into. the rate hikes killed em. good people who were tricked into second mortgages with adjustable rates are losing their homes, too... not because they were living too high on the hog, but because the mortgages weren't sufficiently explained to them. lots of old people.

look at that auto repossession industry as a good example. they are selling those same cars over and over again and making lots of money doing it.

there's a moral problem with being willing to sell people things they can't afford, knowing what will happen and being perfectly fine with it as long as money is made.

i'm not saying it's possible to legislate an idealistic world.

what i AM saying is what's wrong morally is wrong - whether it's based on taking advantage of people's ignorance - or done at the point of a gun. it's still a type of theft.

[Malkavian]

how is losing your home lucky? i mean, you come home, find all your shit on the sidewalk. many of these people were victims because they shouldn't have been OFFERED a loan in the first place - and somehow that's their fault, and not the writer of the mortgage who knows full well that the thing is doomed. not everyone's smart. a lot of these people didn't have a clue as to what they were being baited into. the rate hikes killed em. good people who were tricked into second mortgages with adjustable rates are losing their homes, too... not because they were living too high on the hog, but because the mortgages weren't sufficiently explained to them. lots of old people.

look at that auto repossession industry as a good example. they are selling those same cars over and over again and making lots of money doing it.

there's a moral problem with being willing to sell people things they can't afford, knowing what will happen and being perfectly fine with it as long as money is made.

i'm not saying it's possible to legislate an idealistic world.

what i AM saying is what's wrong morally is wrong - whether it's based on taking advantage of people's ignorance - or done at the point of a gun. it's still a type of theft.

How can you steal something that belongs to you in the first place? Subprimers are lucky to have lived in those houses for a few months in the first place. I would understand if they were paying mortgage for 30 years, had one payment left, and got foreclosed on. Now that would be a disaster. That would be theft. But they put nothing down, made interest only payments... They did not own a cent in that house - bank owned it. They were lucky that bank was stupid enough to let them live there - without those subprime mortgages it would have never happened.

Likewise, in the auto repo business - they are lucky they are driving a car they could never afford, even if for a few months, and then dumping it, only to get it again later. Cars get used, money changes hands, economy keeps going... I don't see how they are victims.

As for ARMs... if you are about to sign an agreement worth $10,000's it would be a really good idea to actually read the contract you are about to sign. And have a lawyer look it over, if you are uncertain. I mean, it's not like buying a bag of peanuts.